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Author Topic: Evidence of Theism  (Read 205 times)
sferrari17
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« on: July 22, 2008, 07:14:36 AM »

I just read about half of the 'disproving theism' topic, and it raised some interesting questions.  Here is one that I would like to pose to all the atheists at BC.

Why do you think that your irrational beliefs make more sense than what you consider the irrational beliefs of a theist?

I have heard multiple people talk about the lack of evidence for theism, and Christianity in particular.  They claim that believing something on faith makes that something invalid.  Well, let me borrow a line from Tim Allens's "The Santa Clause."  His son is talking to Neil about whether or not Santa Clause exists, and he asks Neil if he has ever seen a million dollars.  When Neil replies with a no, the son then asks him why he believes it exists.

The reason that Neil, and everyone else, believes that a million dollars exists is that they believe what people tell them.  Neither you nor I have been to Africa; however, we all believe it exists because we trust those who tell us that it does in fact exist.  What makes theism any different?  I may never experience something like faith-healing or glossolalia;  however, I do believe the people who tell me that it is possible for that to happen, and I trust them.  In the same way, you will never go to the moon; however, any rational person accepts the fact that people have walked on the moon.

My point is, all of our beliefs are based on our trust in those we interact with.  We trust authors, scholars, our family, friends, etc... However, we end up taking things on faith that we can't actually prove at this moment in time. 

There are things in this world that science is unable to explain.  Miraculous healing, certain death recoveries, natural phenomenons, etc...Non-theists claim that science is capable of explaining these things; we just aren't there 'yet.'  Those who believe that are making the assumption, based on no evidence whatsoever, that human science can in fact explain everything.  Since we cannot explain everything with science, you merely believe that it is possible. 

So, basically, don't tell me that theists have superstitious beliefs that are completely irrational. Everyone has irrational beliefs; atheists just don't like to admit it.  Scientists and non-theists make as many leaps of faith as theists do; one bases their faith in fallible humanity, while the other places their faith in an infallible God.  Which one makes more sense to you?
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2008, 07:06:20 PM »

Well said.
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SquirleyWurley
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2008, 09:03:04 PM »

Why do you think that your irrational beliefs make more sense than what you consider the irrational beliefs of a theist?

Some opinions can be well founded compared to other opinions, and yet still be subject to serious scrutiny.  I'm sure many of my irrational beliefs are not much different than other people's irrational beliefs, whether Theist or non-Theist, whatever.

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I have heard multiple people talk about the lack of evidence for theism, and Christianity in particular

I'd rather put it this way: I don't see any REASON to feel compelled to sign onto some set of relgious or metaphysical beliefs, but when I do feel inclined one way or another, there may very well be so many subjective factors involved that this would probably make for no real solid argument sufficient to compel me not to change my view or compel others to believe as I do.  I don't think religious believers feelings/opinions on such subjects are superior to my own.  So where's the reason for me to convert, if I just don't feel like it?  Nothing substantial.

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They claim that believing something on faith makes that something invalid.

Technically, yes, faith is not a valid argument, it does not prove any position, yes, logically, any argument from faith is NOT VALID.

However, that's just a technical matter of logic.

Someone may believe something about the world that is verified by evidence, and yet WHY they believe it, personally, is subjective, and argued invalidly.

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The reason that Neil, and everyone else, believes that a million dollars exists is that they believe what people tell them.  Neither you nor I have been to Africa; however, we all believe it exists because we trust those who tell us that it does in fact exist.  What makes theism any different?

So you are willing to argue that Theism is basically equivalent to believing in Santa Clause?  Many atheists will agree with you, here.

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I may never experience something like faith-healing or glossolalia;  however, I do believe the people who tell me that it is possible for that to happen, and I trust them.

I have experienced some of both.  There are people who would argue for psychic or other wierd phenomena, some use the language of a religion to deal with such things, others try to be para-psychological about it, others are rigidly skeptical about such things, etc.  I would not argue that my experience proves my interpretation of my experience.  I would just say "weird stuff may happen/have happened/seems to happen, and this is how I sometimes think/feel about it" ... I think that's a pretty transparent way to deal with such phenomena.  It doesn't prove some pet para-psychological theory or metaphysical system or religion, nor do I particularly wish to convince someone else of my interpretation at some particular point in time.

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There are things in this world that science is unable to explain.  Miraculous healing, certain death recoveries, natural phenomenons, etc...

There are things that are weird, I'll agree up to a point.  I don't think rare weird stuff has been studied all that well, that sort of thing is hard to study well, so it's premature to be too opinionated about such things, it's hard to tell how well we might understand rare and weird things.  Many weird events really haven't been observed all that well/consistently.  There's many who claim milk miraculously poured out of idols in India, it's associated with Ganesha, for example.  These sorts of weird things are claimed from time to time, in various cultures/religions/contexts.  If someone tries to research it, maybe they record some weird/interesting stuff, maybe some questions are raise, maybe some things seem unexplained/unexplainable, but then the phenomenon stops, how do you scrutinize it to understand now?  So people weave together intuitions and visions and just-so speculations, and go on about things.  What about the various interpretations is compelling?  Not much.  Sometimes some out and out fraud is discovered, and it's pretty clear.  Other times stage magicians or scientists, etc., demonstrate how such things might happen naturally through either trickery or weird science.  Other times the phenomenon has just past the point where it can be scrutinized so it's just a big weird question mark.

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So, basically, don't tell me that theists have superstitious beliefs that are completely irrational. Everyone has irrational beliefs;

Yes.  But if you are so skeptical about science and its ability to understand and sufficiently explain enough of the weird stuff, why would you be NON-SKEPTICAL about the boatload of assertions made by any metaphysical or religious system?  In that sense a skeptic, agnostic, or atheist, may be very much more consistent, i.e., they may be critically rational.

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Scientists and non-theists make as many leaps of faith as theists do; one bases their faith in fallible humanity, while the other places their faith in an infallible God.  Which one makes more sense to you?

No.  When they speculate and opinionate within their fields they are VERY well informed and engaged in severe self-criticism and peer review, and this makes for a great difference.

I think it's reasonable to use imagination, creativity, fantasy, to build up morale, to perhaps boost the immune system, to perhaps get a placebo effect or release some latent resources we may have access to, but some people have a MUCH better grasp of how to deal with an infection, let's say, gangrene, they are called doctors.  Medicine has aspects of art and science.  In any case, it's very disciplined and practical oriented.  There's probably little or no harm in using positive visualization, prayer, meditation, self-hypnosis, etc., and there may be a benefit, but sometimes you do need to go to someone who has access to the results of well done, disciplined research in a practical field.  By comparison, other alternatives are very speculative and unreliable.
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SquirleyWurley
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2008, 09:08:53 PM »

Oh and thank you both for bringing some life back to this corner of BeliefCorner!
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Acumen
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2008, 06:25:08 PM »

Oh and thank you both for bringing some life back to this corner of BeliefCorner!


Squirly,

You know you are welcome to invite some of your agnostic and atheistic friends over here for debate.   Grin
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SquirleyWurley
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2008, 07:30:13 PM »

Well Jackny is already here!  But yeah, I suppose I could mix rl:f2f life with online a bit more... hm...
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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2008, 09:53:52 PM »

Well Jackny is already here!  But yeah, I suppose I could mix rl:f2f life with online a bit more... hm...


The more the better!!!
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jacknky
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« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2008, 08:17:34 AM »

"The reason that Neil, and everyone else, believes that a million dollars exists is that they believe what people tell them."

Not really. The reason we "believe" a million dollars exists is because we have some evidence it exists. I happen to have a dollar in my pocket and can see that if I had a million of the dollars i hold in my hand I'd have a million dollars. It really isn't a matter of faith.

"So, basically, don't tell me that theists have superstitious beliefs that are completely irrational. Everyone has irrational beliefs; atheists just don't like to admit it.  Scientists and non-theists make as many leaps of faith as theists do; one bases their faith in fallible humanity, while the other places their faith in an infallible God.  Which one makes more sense to you?"

There is a third way of living that you don't mention. Rather than seeking to justify secular OR religious irrationality , superstition, fear and wishful thinking we can seek to see clearly and understand the effects our irrationalities have on our lives. While we may not understand our irrationalities in a perfect way if we have the ideal of doing so we slowly can lessen the hold those irrationalities have on our lives.
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SquirleyWurley
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« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2008, 06:09:49 PM »

Not really. The reason we "believe" a million dollars exists is because we have some evidence it exists. I happen to have a dollar in my pocket and can see that if I had a million of the dollars i hold in my hand I'd have a million dollars. It really isn't a matter of faith.

Right.  And we STILL may be wrong about whether there is a million dollars here or there, or a gazillion anywhere, etc.  But we do have something to work from, very clear, practical, based in our senses and common experiences, etc., and we don't have to stretch ourselves to fit radical speculations in order to deal with the subject of a million dollars in this bank account, etc., it's not as radically speculative and dubious as any religious or metaphysical matter.

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There is a third way of living that you don't mention. Rather than seeking to justify secular OR religious irrationality , superstition, fear and wishful thinking we can seek to see clearly and understand the effects our irrationalities have on our lives. While we may not understand our irrationalities in a perfect way if we have the ideal of doing so we slowly can lessen the hold those irrationalities have on our lives.

Hence, I prefer to say I support a critical rationalism, that is, a humble rationalism aware of error and limitations and illusions, and I don't mind if someone suggests I'm agnostic, because I do think it's important to emphasize how we learn from trial/error/mistake rather than from pretending certainty.

I'm atheistic in that I do not believe there is a 'god' as described by certain religions, but I plead agnostic on much of what seems to me to be the mysterious aspects of consciousness/life/phenomenon.
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jacknky
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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2008, 09:59:46 AM »

Well said, Squirley. I totally agree.
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