Separation of Church and State

[Acumen]

Not where I live. There are many fundementalists writing books, producing TV and radio shows who have made themselves quite wealthy.

Like who?

[jacknky]

Like who? Perhaps the list would be shorter if you simply listed televangelists who aren't rich.

[jacknky]

"I agree with Jack."

Halleluia. There MUST be a God! (Just kidding, El. Thanks.)

[Acumen]

Like who? Perhaps the list would be shorter if you simply listed televangelists who aren't rich.

How many televangelists are fundamentalist Christians, Jack?

[sferrari17]

Yeah, prosperity Gospel is completely different from fundamental Christianity.

[jacknky]

17,
"How many televangelists are fundamentalist Christians, Jack?'

29.

Nah, I just made that up.

How many aren't, Acumen?

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

  There is a group of people, led by prominent atheists like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins, who profess their hatred for Christianity and their desire to completely eradicate religion, and Christianity in particular, from the face of the earth.  Their numbers are growing as more and more of the intellectual community identifies atheism with sophistication and intelligence. Any book that spouts such hateful language and unfounded assertions becomes an instant bestseller; that ought to give you some indication of the current mood of American society.  I am not saying that Christians can't be touchy or overreact, because it happens everyday.  However, I think that we have a legitimate concern.

 I have known a few atheists or others who seem to think that they are the only ones with any kind of brain, and it is very infuriating. A friendship with romantic potential went south in my life partly for this reason; I didn't like being compared to the Pharisaical and closed-minded Christians who tend to be the more vocal and thus well-heard ones. Who would? But that brings me to a point-it seems that some Christians give every bit as good as they get, and then some! It's not as though we are silent, persecuted minorities in this country-in fact, I have known far more Christians who *do* the persecuting (for lack of a better word) than ones who get it done to them. Just listen to a few of our 'heroes'* like Pat Robertson or the late Jerry Falwell.

And perhaps Dawkins makes the news because he is unusual, loud...if he were like every atheist on the corner, he wouldn't get much attention for long. The squeaky wheels get the oil (attention), no matter what side they come from.







*these are by no means my heroes, but they are pretty widely lauded by the fundamentalists/evangelicals I have grown up around and known, who are also the most likely to have the 'martyr complex' mentioned in other posts.

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

And that has what to do with this topic?

[SquirleyWurley]

Things certainly seem to go better when people admit that their 'opponent' might have something worth contributing.  I wish there was more of that attitude around the country in general.

[gluadys]

All of these things lead to the problems we are working to solve in our nation now. I believe that the Christian church is subject to the same treatment that white men across America are being subjected to.  Other religions (and non-religions) are given special treatment, and Christianity is left hanging out to dry. 

It is interesting to note how often the reduction of special privilege for a dominant group is depicted as awarding special privilege to minority groups.  I remember when supplying separate washroom facilities and maternity leave was called a "special privilege" for women rather than seen as facilitating their equal participation in the workforce.  Ditto for special equipment for those with handicaps.

I have not seen anything remotely resembling special privilege for non-Christian religions (or for non-whites), but I can understand that the trend to equality for all feels like loss of rights for those who are losing their former status of special privilege.   I expect most schools and places of work in  the US are still closed on Sundays, Easter and Christmas and maybe Good Friday.  Are they closed on Firdays or Saturdays, Hannukah or Eid or Diwali or Wesak?  Until they are Christianity still has special privilege in American society. 

I know there are a number of Christian media networks that are heard across the nation.  How many Hindu or Muslim or humanist equivalents are there?  Until the broadcast power of other religions equals that of the church, Christianity still has special privilege in American society. 

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

I agree, and will go one more. In my experience, it seems that many who complain about others getting 'special privileges' are the same people who are most likely to discriminate against/look down on the 'special' group. For instance, a lot of the people I have heard complain about non-whites getting 'special privileges' are pretty racist, or at least don't look at other races positively. No one likes being called on their crap, and that is often what is happening. It is one thing if someone simply hasn't been around anyone different, or hasn't thought about the inequality before. But that isn't always the case. You can often tell the difference.

[jacknky]

"And perhaps Dawkins makes the news because he is unusual, loud...if he were like every atheist on the corner, he wouldn't get much attention for long. The squeaky wheels get the oil (attention), no matter what side they come from."

Well, you're right in that most non-theists have learned to mostly stay quiet about our non-belief. It's my experience that theists feel perfectly comfortable discussing their beliefs in mixed company but if we express our non-belief we are to some extent being rude. So, we stay quiet.

That is changing some now though and non-theists are beginning to "come out of the closet". Dawkins as a scientist is very well spoken and presents our case well. I personally like Sam Harris the best as he seems a bit less strident. My least favorite is Hitchens who is so confrontive as to be a jerk.

[SquirleyWurley]

Weird impressions we get.  I feel the opposite, I like Hitchin's style much better than Dawkins when it comes to the subject of religion, especially when I look at their books.  Harris leaves me non-plussed, and I'm irritated by some of the ways he disagrees with me.

Style is such a subjective thing, apparently.

[gluadys]

Weird impressions we get.  I feel the opposite, I like Hitchin's style much better than Dawkins when it comes to the subject of religion, especially when I look at their books.  Harris leaves me non-plussed, and I'm irritated by some of the ways he disagrees with me.

Style is such a subjective thing, apparently.

Apparently.

I can't comment on Harris as I haven't read him.  But I found Hitchins much more strident and hysterical than Dawkins.   Although I agreed with a lot he had to say, I found I couldn't recommend him to anyone, because of the overblown tone. 

[jacknky]

Yes, Hitchens is too divisive for my taste. I may agree with what he's saying but not how he's saying it. Have you ever seen him on TV? He can really seem condescending. We non-theists have a bad enough rap without our "spokespersons" feeding into the arrogant stereotype.

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Yeah, prosperity Gospel is completely different from fundamental Christianity.

I could go on about what I think of the Prosperity Gospel and how the idea has personally hurt me, but I think there is another thread where I do that (the one about 'Healing or Hoax?"), and I don't really have the energy right now for the type of rant I would inevitably get into. Tomorrow might be better for that.

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

"And perhaps Dawkins makes the news because he is unusual, loud...if he were like every atheist on the corner, he wouldn't get much attention for long. The squeaky wheels get the oil (attention), no matter what side they come from."

Well, you're right in that most non-theists have learned to mostly stay quiet about our non-belief. It's my experience that theists feel perfectly comfortable discussing their beliefs in mixed company but if we express our non-belief we are to some extent being rude. So, we stay quiet.

That is changing some now though and non-theists are beginning to "come out of the closet". Dawkins as a scientist is very well spoken and presents our case well. I personally like Sam Harris the best as he seems a bit less strident. My least favorite is Hitchens who is so confrontive as to be a jerk.

I can see how you might not want to bring up your beliefs, since in some parts of the country that can start a discussion that you might not really feel like getting into at that time.

I don't have issue with atheists talking about their beliefs as long as they are respectful of mine.  This is how I feel about other beliefs in general, and I don't expect respect I am not willing to give them. I don't try to convert them, so I don't want them to try to convert me or speak as though they are how they are because they are intelligent, and if I were intelligent I would be an atheist too. I have seen this a good bit. I think both theists and atheists would do well to learn to respect beliefs even if they don't agree. This doesn't mean that you can never argue, but sometimes it is not a good time for that. As you get to know a person, you might learn when to argue and when not to. I have friends who don't want to hear about my faith, so I try to respect that.

Sensitivity goes a long way. I don't always want an argument or debate, and there have been some friends in my life who seemed to think that I did and who would always start arguing with me.  These were offline. I don't always mind this, but I don't think it is a good idea to do that when you know someone is having a hard time with their belief and might need you to listen or whatever. I had a really hard time about four years ago and sometimes still do, and I found an agnostic/pagan friend of mine's assertions that Christians were weak/less intelligent and constant debate to be unhelpful and actually pretty upsetting. It was just the wrong time. You wouldn't bad-mouth someone's mother while that person was still mourning her death.  Loss of faith can be like a breakup or death in the emotional impact, particularly if your faith was/is a large part of your life. This is an example of one of the few times I have gotten frustrated with an atheist friend, but any other time I don't care if someone believes differently from me. I think some people might be a bit oversensitive and perceive all disagreement as a personal attack, but I do think that both sides of the debate would do well to think before they speak and consider that they are talking about something that is often a major part of a person's life and not always just a passing fancy.

[jacknky]

Wonderful post, BD. I admit that I can get a little confrontive sometimes especially when I feel people are using their religious faith to justify harmful practices. I have much more respect for liberal Christians such as you appear to be, who aren't quite so positive I'm going to burn in hell and they're not. On my good days I try to remember that deep down we have more in common than we often realize. We are all facing old age, sickness and death sometime in our lives and that is a great leveler if we let it.