"True Christianity"

[Acumen]

Acumen,
"I don't recall Jesus healing lepers, the cripple, the sick, whithered hands, severed ears, blind eyes, or even raising the dead by casting out demons."

"In my name shall they cast out devils..." (Mark 16:17)

"What you've displayed is a bias toward demon possession as whole, not an evidence-based proposition that Jesus and his ilk were primitive."   

Doesn't the Catholic Church itself practice exorcism? (I saw "The Exorcist" so it must be true.)

What "evidence" would you consider enough to "prove" that Jesus was a primitive by our standards? I doubt there is such evidence.

Jack,

You should probably check out how the conversation evolved. 

[jacknky]

"My point is that in order for something to be eternal, whatever that may be, it's eternal nature is supernatural, because the concept/reality of eternity is by definition contradictory to the natural."

Your "proof" is based on rhetorical gymnastics. It has nothing to do with what can be seen or verified. That is why theistic scientists and many theologians acknowledge there is no "proof" of anything supernatural, including gods.

But here's a rhetorical exercise for you. How can the supernatural exist in the natural universe? If it exists in the natural universe it is by definition "natural" and subject to universal natural laws.

[jacknky]

"Jack,

You should probably check out how the conversation evolved. "

(blush) You caught me.

[SquirleyWurley]

The problem with your reasoning is that the vast majority still believes in a higher intelligence, this is no where near something from past "prim ;Ditives."

I don't think that part's necessarily primitive, because, as you indicated, it isn't just ancient history.  It may be a bias from our mind's tendency to try to guess what lurks in the dark, the tendency to be quick to try to figure out if something is intending to help or harm us in the shadows, the invisible, etc., but that would not make it primitive, it may just be a function of our vast powers (and compulsions) of creative speculation, which I also indulge in from time to time, in my own way, though I am not a theist.

LOL!  Good one.

I hoped it would entertain.   

You should have read my other responses, if you want to join the discussion, I suggest you go back and read the actual argument in order to see that I am merely speaking about the objective proof for the supernatural, we haven't gotten to God yet.

I knew I was jumping ahead, and yes I did skim some.  My bad. I was just trying to emphasize that while we may debate as to whether what we are speaking of is 'natural' or 'super' 'natural' (whatever that's supposed to mean), this is a far cry from theistic belief.  I know you said as much in an earlier post.  But yes, I should probably go back and read a bit more carefully.

"mysterious aspect" = supernatural....yes that's what I said already.

Ah, well then there is the question of what's in a name.  I don't see why the mysterious can't be considered natural.  I don't mystify mathematical or logical truth, I think mathematical and logical truths are natural rather than supernatural, yet some would consider them mysterious supernatural forms/ideas, partaking of 'the eternal'.

But yes I really should go back and take some time to read more carefully just what your argument is.  My time is limited this weekend.  Perhaps I will get to it in a few days.

[SquirleyWurley]

You said you don't consider mathematical truths to have a sense of "mysterious/supernatural form," but why is a perfect circle impossible to create and why are we not only capable of conceiving the concept of "equality" but we demand it in our world, when mathematically "equality" is impossible and we have never and cannot observe it? 

Let me put it another way.  I can easily FEEL that this is mysterious or 'supernatural' in a Platonic sense, and I acknowledge this when I see it in others, I empathize with it.  But my feelings don't mean that I understand WHAT is going on with the idea of 'perfect circles'...  Perhaps there is some other dimension of mind, some mysterious quality of it which taps into some place where 'perfect circles' are very real, and perhaps this taps into some reality which transcends the ordinary, particular world of our sense processing...  Perhaps.

Does this prove the supernatural?  No.  May it explain some phenomenon, yes, it may, in my view.  I find life and consciousness, and many aspects of these things, to be sufficiently amazing and baffling to be open to 'mystery' under many guises.  I know that to say much more about it would be speculation, not knowledge.  So I hope to develop understanding of the subject so my opinions are better formed, but I don't think it makes sense to proclaim any speculation about such things as particularly clear or obvious.

[SquirleyWurley]

First, I reject the proposition that any human not versed in the current paradigm of science is primitive.  Not only is such a term erroneously and arrogantly applied, but it's a slap in the face of the world's greatest minds.

I didn't make that proposition, but I can see how it was implied.  I should have been clearer.  In the interest of a rhetorical flourish I over-simplified failed to convey my complete position.

I suppose it was mostly a joke about history, by default, thousands of years ago were 'more primitive' in a non-perjorative sense that is simply objective, and by default, claiming to give healing powers to followers without having a clue about bacteria or saying anything about washing hands and growing antibiotics on bread at the very least, is primitive.  And even at that, Egyptians knew that bread mold was a good thing to put in wounds, though it took centuries for the West to figure it out, no thanks to religion.  I might as well have simply said, for such reasons (and others) Jesus wasn't either Lord, Liar, or Lunatic,  so much as he was either a Primitive, a Pretender, or a Paranoid, and I'd prefer to simply refer to him as 'a primitive' in an objective and non-perjorative sense.

Second, exorcising demons was not the treatment for disease.  I don't recall Jesus healing lepers, the cripple, the sick, whithered hands, severed ears, blind eyes, or even raising the dead by casting out demons.

I'm glad to have any errors corrected.  I don't like to misrepresent facts.

What you've displayed is a bias toward demon possession as whole, not an evidence-based proposition that Jesus and his ilk were primitive.

Well I started another thread "Primitive, Pretender, or Paranoid vs. Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" to deal with that 

But for the time being I will clarify (sort of): I don't think trying to cast out demons is necessarily bad or unhealthy.  It CAN be bad and/or unhealthy, depending on how it is done, the approach and attitude one takes.  I'm a bit 'primitive' myself, actually.

[Kefa2]

If that's true, then why do so many Christians show blatant disregard and disrespect for any non-Christian belief?

I don't know that Christians show "blatant disregard" or "disrespect" for other beliefs, they just don't think they're true.  I think that what the Hindu type faiths don't like is that Christianity teaches there's only one path to God. 

Not all Christians do this, but many so-called born-again true Christian folk become greatly offended when we non-Christians question their faith.

Here are a few personal experiences:
Boss asked on a Christian forum if anyone knew of a place or website where he could Islamic or Arabic originated rugs. He was told in a private message to omit the term "Islamic" because it was a "false religion" and the term "Arabic" for unknown reasons or the moderator would delete the thread.

Boss was also yelled at by a twelve-year-old because he believed in evolution. Said boy went on to say how evolution was arrogantly stupid. He even wrote a book on the subject. It was five minutes and seven pages of reading I will never get back... You can find it at Lulu.com under the author Alex Delborro.

Myers was also harrassed by a Christian for his beliefs in evolution. Only this participant refused to acknowledge the copious amount of facts and only proceeded in claiming Myers was an "evil false prophet here to corrupt the minds of new Christians with his 'lies'".

I was banned from the very site for asking Christians not to judge the Hindu religion so harshly, as they were claiming it was a false relgion that followed a dead god. I claimed that Hinduism and Christianity were equal in value, they kicked me out and continued in their efforts to teach people how Christianity is better than every other religion.

Myers was banned, ironically, for speaking out in a thread entitled "Silencing Christians".

Myers was banned in another forum for claiming God was a woman. To add insult to injury, the offending moderator mocked the very idea after Myers was disposed of.


I can understand that Christians don't agree with other religions. But why can't they recognize them as equal? Many people on this site are very considerate of other faiths compared to some of the forums I've been to. To some Christians, it's like them against the world. If you don't agree with their teachings, you might as well be from another planet... I don't understand that. Why do people think that way?

*["...why can't they recognize them as equal?..."]

***Because they are NOT equal. Some religions are polytheistic and some are monotheistic...some believe that a person can work his way to salvation...but Christianity maintains that salvation is by GRACE through the merits of Jesus Christ our Lord (which I believe). One does not have to be a nuclear scientist to understand that it is not possible for all religions to be equal.

Too, Jesus Christ made some EXCLUSIVE claims about Himself and why He came. For instance; He tells us the following:
(1) "...I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the father but BY ME" [John 14:6].
(2) "...I am the RESURRECTION, and the the life: he that believeth IN ME, though he were DEAD, yet shall he LIVE: and whosoever liveth and BELIEVETH IN ME shall NEVER DIE (i.e., meaning the SECOND death)..." [John 11:25-26].
(3) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the DOOR of the sheep. ALL that ever came BEFORE me are THIEVES and ROBBERS: but the sheep did NOT hear them. I am the DOOR: BY ME if any man enter in, he shall be SAVED, and shall go in and out, and find pasture..." [John 10:7-9].   

So no...all religions are NOT equal nor can they ever be.


*["...To some Christians, it's like them against the world. If you don't agree with their teachings, you might as well be from another planet...I don't understand that. Why do people think that way?"]

***Let me preface my answer to your question by saying that ALL true Christians have ONE source of TRUTH that they follow...and that TRUTH Is the Scriptures of the OT & NT. We consider NO other authority...NO pope...no alternative writings or teachings.

Those Christians that you refer to are the TRUE Christians...the world HATES them and is, indeed, AGAINST them and CANNOT love them. Why?...because the world HATED their MASTER Jesus BEFORE it hated them {John 15:18]. They know, of a certainty, that the world HATES them.

Mankind is depraved and the world system is evil. This is the result of the SIN of our parents Adam and Eve. They died spiritually when they SINNED against God...and passed down their sinful NATURE to US. Mankind does NOT...nor WILL NOT acknowledge their sin nature and sinfullness. They (i.e., mankind) and the world system they created are evil. That is why they HATE Christians (i.e., those who are made righteous through the merits of Jesus Christ)...evil and righteousness are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

Here is what the Lord Jesus Christ said about the world: "If the world hate you, ye know that it HATED Me BEFORE it hated YOU. If ye were of the world, the world would LOVE his own: BUT because ye are NOT of the world, but I have CHOSEN you OUT OF the world, therefore the world HATETH you. Remember the word that I said unto you. The SERVANT is NOT greater than his LORD. If they have PERSECUTED Me, they WILL also PERSECUTE you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for MY NAME'S SAKE; because they KNOW NOT Him that sent me" (John 15:18-21). 

Kefa

[SquirleyWurley]

As an atheist I certainly don't think all religions are equal.  So I really don't get why a Christian should think all religions are equal.