Could your belief be wrong?

[sferrari17]

maybe.  Like I said, I don't have any statistics.  However, you don't think that it would be more mentally reassuring to know that there was a loving, perfect, God who was always there when you needed him?  Whether or not the theist is delusional is irrelevant.    Theists as a whole are more mentally stable because they have more hope and reassurance.  That's my opinion, anyways.  I know that I would enjoy life a lot less if this was all I had. 

Of course, as I've said before, it is certainly possible for a non-theist to enjoy life and to be happy, just like it is possible for a Christian to become disillusioned with God and become depressed.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

Not really, in the depressed mentality, it does no good to believe that there is "a loving, perfect, God who was always there when you needed him" if when you feel you "need him" he's not there.  In fact, it just makes the matters worse. 

You can't really say that because you think you would be depressed if you believed this was all there is, that people who don' believe in a god are more depressed than people who do, that is projection.

all

[jacknky]

17,
"However, you don't think that it would be more mentally reassuring to know that there was a loving, perfect, God who was always there when you needed him?"

a small point but Christians don't know there is a god who loves them. They believe there is. It's good to be able to tell the difference between reality and belief. The reality is we're going to die. Some believe they'll live forever with God.

But you are speaking the typical theist stereotype that their religion leads to a better life than non-belief. But there are some disturbing statistics for that theory. I found these in "Letter to a Christian nation" which you think is not factual so here is something concrete you can rebute.

No, I think I'll start a new thread instead. "Christianity- the Good Life?"

[Acumen]

17,
"However, you don't think that it would be more mentally reassuring to know that there was a loving, perfect, God who was always there when you needed him?"

a small point but Christians don't know there is a god who loves them. They believe there is. It's good to be able to tell the difference between reality and belief. The reality is we're going to die. Some believe they'll live forever with God.

But you are speaking the typical theist stereotype that their religion leads to a better life than non-belief. But there are some disturbing statistics for that theory. I found these in "Letter to a Christian nation" which you think is not factual so here is something concrete you can rebute.

No, I think I'll start a new thread instead. "Christianity- the Good Life?"

I tend to agree with 17, that religious people live more fulfilled lives.

[metis]

I tend to agree with 17, that religious people live more fulfilled lives.

IYO, would that include Buddhists and non-theistic Hindus?

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Not really, in the depressed mentality, it does no good to believe that there is "a loving, perfect, God who was always there when you needed him" if when you feel you "need him" he's not there.  In fact, it just makes the matters worse. 

You can't really say that because you think you would be depressed if you believed this was all there is, that people who don' believe in a god are more depressed than people who do, that is projection.

all

I totally agree. I can't really speak for others, but I can speak for myself as I have been treated for one mood disorder or another (depression, and now bipolar) for about thirteen years.

Feeling close to God did help sometimes, but there are few times when you feel farther from God (or anyone else, for that matter) than when you are having a depressive episode. In fact, some teachings can make it worse!

I mentioned I am a former fundamentalist/evangelical. I know many people find fulfillment in that path, but I found that the people I were around were so legalistic and had such tunnel vision that they made my problem worse. In addition to basically blaming me for having depression ('all you need is Jesus''You could be well if you only had enough faith', etc), they tried to put me in a mold (the 'proper Christian woman' mold) that I did not fit, and made it seem as though I was being 'rebellious' or 'going against God' when I did not fit that mold. Add to this that I was thought to have a 'spirit' or 'demon' that needed to be cast out, and you have a pretty destructive and harmful belief system. I tried all the prayer in the world to be healed, because I didn't want to take medicine anymore (it wasn't working anymore by that point).  But it never came. I was basically convinced that God didn't love me, that in fact He hated me, because I was the way I am. That I was being punished somehow. This definitely made my depression and feeling far from God much worse! As I was not raised a Christian, I was quite tempted to go back to my atheist/agnostic beginnings, as it was very hard for me to believe in such a hateful God, and it seemed I was happier when I didn't.

After this, I came to know some people who taught about the *real* Jesus, the one who isn't sitting around on a cloud waiting to smite people, and who wasn't making me sick for the fun of it. I still have my disorder and probably always will to some extent, but the knowledge that God doesn't hate me has been very healing, even if I feel very far from Him.

I basically said all of this to say that depression can come to all of us, religion or not, and that the wrong teachings can actually make it worse. I have known what it is like to feel that God hates you and that you are basically a bad person for having an illness that is in no way your fault. No one deserves this.

[metis]

Personally, I had far more problems as a theist dealing with the issue of "faith" than I now have as a non-theist.  I had to force myself much of the time to believe in that which I found scant evidence for, and now as a non-theist I have come to realize that I simply do not have to force any particular belief on myself.  It's actually quite liberating, and I've gotten quite comfortable with saying "I don't know". 

[sferrari17]

@ metis

Not really, because you don't have a father figure looking after you.  Buddhists and non-theistic Hindus don't have a loving, all powerful, and personal god in their religion, so I wouldn't think that they fall into the category I was describing.

@ BD

Your are right; Christianity can come off as hateful to others, and at times to Christians themselves.  Every year when I go to the Augusta Nationals Golf Tournament (I live about 10 min away), there is a guy with a big sign that says fags, sports fans, alcoholics, druggies, liars, etc... are all going to hell.  Then there are the people who show up at funerals to protest gay marriage and say that God is punishing us for it.  There are idiots in every walk of life, and there will always be people that misinterpret the truth.  It is our job as Christians to find the loving heart of God in our religion, and reveal that love to those around us.

[jacknky]

"Not really, because you don't have a father figure looking after you.  Buddhists and non-theistic Hindus don't have a loving, all powerful, and personal god in their religion, so I wouldn't think that they fall into the category I was describing."

Some don't have a need for a father figure to look after us. Granted it is uncomfortable to step out from being grounded in religious belief but the rewards of freeing ourselves from concepts that don't conform to the natural world can be liberating.

Nothing in the world except religious belief indicates that the Universe is anything more than neutral about our individual welfare. Nothing but religion indicates that we will live forever. I think there is an addicting quality to that belief that one is looked after and will live forever but there is also something liberating about simply accepting what we know and also what we really don't know, as Metis pointed out. I doubt you will agree or understand.

[sferrari17]

Lol...sorry, my parents are in charge of that.  We have a standing arrangement with one of my Dad's friends, so I doubt he will break that off to sell them to some guy I met on the Internet.   

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

@ metis

Not really, because you don't have a father figure looking after you.  Buddhists and non-theistic Hindus don't have a loving, all powerful, and personal god in their religion, so I wouldn't think that they fall into the category I was describing.

@ BD

Your are right; Christianity can come off as hateful to others, and at times to Christians themselves.  Every year when I go to the Augusta Nationals Golf Tournament (I live about 10 min away), there is a guy with a big sign that says fags, sports fans, alcoholics, druggies, liars, etc... are all going to hell.  Then there are the people who show up at funerals to protest gay marriage and say that God is punishing us for it.  There are idiots in every walk of life, and there will always be people that misinterpret the truth.  It is our job as Christians to find the loving heart of God in our religion, and reveal that love to those around us.

We have those guys here in Newnan sometimes. They are actually pretty annoying and most people don't pay them any mind.  Their tactics really bother me; a sign one had, 'I chose Jesus, you chose to be gay' says absolutely nothing about what Jesus taught or even came for! I have yet to see anything productive come out of them. And the anti-abortion one with a doll on the end of a rope tied to a stick with red paint on it is just disgusting.

Augusta, Georgia? I live in Newnan, outside Atlanta! I am not from here (which would be evident if you heard me speak-I don't have a Southern accent really, despite being from NC), but my husband was born and raised here, and all of his people are here.

[sferrari17]

Yeah,  I live in North Augusta, which is right across the Savannah river over in South Carolina.  Although I have lived here all my live, I don't really have an accent either. I throw in an occasional ya'll or 'fixin to', but that's about it.  Of course, I'm sure people up North would disagree with me, but I've never been to the New England area, so I wouldn't really know.

P.S.-is this discussion of topic or what1 

[metis]

Not really, because you don't have a father figure looking after you.  Buddhists and non-theistic Hindus don't have a loving, all powerful, and personal god in their religion, so I wouldn't think that they fall into the category I was describing.

Many Buddhist schools, especially the Mahayana, tend to think there are deities, although most tend to think that they are transient and have only limited impact on day to day events.  There are many Buddhist especially in this grouping that do emphasize and actually pray to such a deity, sometimes including the Buddha himself.  When we refer to the fact that the vast majority of Buddhists are "non-theistic", this is mostly in reference to their non-belief in some sort of creator-god.  The general drift within Buddhism is that if there were to be a creator-god, it would most likely be an ever-changing entity since everything we seemingly experience involves change.  Non-theistic Hindus tend to take a very similar position.

If one believes in a creator-god only because they need the security, that hardly is evidence that one actually exists, and this feel of a need of a "Big Daddy" to watch over us may indicate a weakness that a great many of us have to feel a need for such an entity.  Many others do not necessarily feel such a need, and they may well dedicate their lives to attempt to benefit humankind and our general environment. 

A study that was conducted several years ago and reported in the media, including BNet, found that Buddhists tend to feel the most satisfied with their lives, with observant Jews being 2nd.  Frankly, I don't know where Christians fit in on that study, but obviously it wasn't in the top two categories.  I also saw another study that said much of the same about Buddhists, but I simply don't recall where it put Christians and observant Jews.

[sferrari17]

I know that you are not trying to say that observant Catholics are more faithful to God than observant Protestants.  You're walking dangerous grounds there, bub...

[Acumen]

The study should have categorized "observant Christians" or better yet, "observant and faithful to the Church's teachings, Catholics."

Then there would have been a more complete and fair assessment of the views of different religions.

Good luck defining an observant Catholic, El.  We can all play semantics here.  We do similar things with "true Christian" and "not a true Christian."  Let me ask you this, is a pope who abused his spiritual authority a few times defined as a Catholic who is "observant and faithful to the Church's teachings" or is such a phrase limited to perfect people?

[SquirleyWurley]

Well I've often been wrong.

In my experience, there can be certain issues which are problematic regardless of belief or disbelief.  There can be certain tensions/issues with either.  We are all healthy/unhealthy to some degree or other, the issue seems to be to find a way to become healthier or to avoid that which is less healthy.  Right now I feel I am benefiting from the freedom of not being beset by the pressure of feeling I have to know/figure out/believe the right things/pretend to know the answers to various riddles.  What Metis and Jackny have been saying resonates with my experience.

[Acumen]

You don't have to be perfect to be an faithfully observant Catholic, it is as simple as believing and trying to live all the precepts of the faith without ever denying the Church's authority on matters of faith and morals.

So a serial killer that listens to strange voices in his head and suffers a temporary lapse in judgment by killing a small child can be a faithfully observant Catholic as long as he believes in the precepts, tries to the live them, and doesn't question Catholic authority?

That was real simple.  How would you define a faithful and observant Protestant?

A faithfully observant Christian is one humble enough to be purged, guided, and taught by the Holy Spirit to live out the precepts of the scriptures with steadfast reliance, which includes loving God, your neighbor, and oneself all the while seeking out the wisdom of spirit-led men of God.

[sferrari17]

First of all, BUB, no need to get pissy....

Second, you need to loosen up ALOT.  Although I agree with you on a lot of issues, I've noticed that you often take a condescending tone towards those who disagree with you.  I don't care what denomination you are, that's not Christian.  I guarantee you that when we get to heaven, we will find out that we all had mistaken beliefs.  Whether or not Catholics or Protestants have more mistakes is debatable, but no denomination is perfect.  If you claim that you have a monopoly on the Truth and that you have everything absolutely figured out, I'm gonna laugh at you.  When it comes down to it, we are all human, and all of our beliefs are filtered through our human logic, which is fallible.  You don't know everything, so stop acting like it, and show some grace to those who disagree with you.  We are here to discuss things in a reasonable manner;  it's a common tactic of the ignorant to shout down dissenters because they can't contend with them.  By being condescending, you are essentially dismissing our arguments without listening to them.  I'm not saying you're ignorant, and you may not be arrogant or condescending, but in a text based medium, it can come across that way.

If I've offended you, I apologize, but I'm not gonna to change my position.  We should represent Christ, and part of that is to have a degree of humility and know that we can make mistakes.

[sferrari17]

I considered removing the above post, but I'm gonna leave up there to show you how I felt when I read your replies.  I realized after I made the post that some of my comments could have been construed in an offensive manner as well, and I want to apologize if they came across that way.

[Acumen]

Acumen:  So a serial killer that listens to strange voices in his head and suffers a temporary lapse in judgment by killing a small child can be a faithfully observant Catholic as long as he believes in the precepts, tries to the live them, and doesn't question Catholic authority?

El:  It would be impossible for a faithfully observant Catholic to be a serial killer since the Priest would have had him turn himself in after he confessed his first murder, not to mention that the mentally ill who really hear voices and act on them are immune to the same type of personal responsibility and again not capable of being a faithfully observant Catholic.


-------------------------------------


First, if a priest stops a killer from being a practicing serial killer, then the killer would have killed again if someone would not have forcibly intervened, which seems to indicate that being serial killer, in nature, and being a faithfully observant Catholic are not contradictory, if being a faithfully observant Catholic involves belief in Catholic precepts and an attempt to live out Catholic precepts. 

Second, not all priests do what they are supposed to, just like not all Catholics are faithfully observant.  So just assuming that the priest would immediately turn the confessed killer in is a little convenient for the purposes of debate.

And third, all of this misses the point that a true Christian wouldn't murder at all because love, a central and requisite Christian virtue, demands of us to give unto others, not to take from them.  And taking a man's life, generally speaking, is a selfish act "ultimately" devoid of love unless it's meant to protect others in a utilitarian sense.  A serial killer or a murderer, has no love for the individual they are violating.  They don't have a little love, or not enough love, but rather no love for the one whose life is being taken.  The scriptures say, if you love him, then you will obey him; and without love, you can't know God. 

-------------------------------

But that's besides the point, any person who commits mortal sin is not a faithfully observant Catholic anyways, they may be Catholic, but not faithfully observant.

Okay, then strike the first and second points I listed above from the record.

So the line is drawn at mortal sins?  So if someone has premarital sex, or got drunk in their lifetime, then he is not a faithfully observant Catholic ever?  Isn't that a pretty steep line to draw?  I mean, how many Catholics do you know that fall into this category?  I know I failed both of those tests at least once in my adult life. 
 
-----------------------

Still simple.

Well, perhaps to the Catholic everything is simple because you do as you're told from a human  being infallible in issues of spirituality and morality, but this isn't so for us Protestants.   

-----------------------

Acumen:  A faithfully observant Christian is one humble enough to be purged, guided, and taught by the Holy Spirit to live out the precepts of the scriptures with steadfast reliance, which includes loving God, your neighbor, and oneself all the while seeking out the wisdom of spirit-led men of God.

El:  Really, which precepts of the Bible are not necessary in order to be an faithfully observant Protestant?  Let's just start with baptism.  As a Protestant, is it necessary to be Baptized? And if so, do they have to be Adults?  Infant?

--------------------------

What do the scriptures say?  Do the scriptures say that baptism saves us and that without it we are damned?  Do the scriptures demonstrate any examples of infants being baptized, or baptism of the unrepentant?