Christianity- the Good Life

[jacknky]

On another board a Christian poster was making the point that Christians tend to live healthier happier lives than non-Christians. Is that true or is it merely a stereotype?

Sam Harris in his book "Letter to a Christian Nation" cites some interesting statistics.

"Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on earth. According to the United Nations' Human Development report (2005) they are aslo the healthiest, as indicated by life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homocide rate, and infant mortality."

"...the United States is unique among wealthy democracies in its level of religious adhernece; it is also uniquely beleagured by high rates of homocide, abortion, teen pregnancy, sexually transmitted disease and infant mortality. The same comparison holds true within the United States itself; Southern and Midwestern states, characterized by the highest levels of religious literalism, are especially plagued by the above indicators of societal disfunction, while the comparatively secular states of the Northeast conform to European norms."

"... Of the twenty-five cities with the lowest rates of violent crime, 62 per cent are in "blue" states... Of the twenty five most dangerous cities 76 per cent are in "red" states...In fact, three of the five most dangerous cities are in the pious state of Texas. The twelve states with the highest rates of burglary are red. 24 of the 29 states with the highest rates of theft are red. Of the 22 states with the highest rates of murder, 17 are red."

(This is me) I might add that my section of the country, the South, again probably the most religious, had to have slavery eliminated at the barrel of a gun and segregation eliminated by the federal government.

Don't these figures indicate that non-theism is compatable with personal and societal aspirations of a good life? Don't they indicate that the widespread assumption by Christians that belief leads to a better life in this world a stereotype and not based in truth?

[sferrari17]

1- can you tell me where he got his statistics from?

2- just because red states happen to have higher crime rates (and whatever else he mentioned) doesn't mean that religion causes the higher crime rates.  He doesn't give any prove that religious zealots are the perpetrators of the various crimes. 

3-he blames religion for high rates of abortion?!?

4-I'm sure that if I went through sheets of statistics, I could pick out ones that made it look like red states and religious countries were better.  I see no reason to trust someone as biased as Harris when it comes to presenting statistics.

[jacknky]

17,
"1- can you tell me where he got his statistics from?"

The International statistics come from the United Nations Human Development Report (2005). I don't know where the statistics about the differences in the states come from but I've read about it in other sources as well.

"2- just because red states happen to have higher crime rates (and whatever else he mentioned) doesn't mean that religion causes the higher crime rates.  He doesn't give any prove that religious zealots are the perpetrators of the various crimes. 

3-he blames religion for high rates of abortion?!?"

I don't think the point was that theism causes disfunction but rather that non-theism doesn't necessarily lead to personal or societal disfunction, which was your assertion. Again, he never "blamed" religion for high rates of abortion but merely pointed out that being religious doesn't seem to matter. BTW, I've read similar statistics about divorce, that conservative areas of the country have higher divorce rates than secular.

"4-I'm sure that if I went through sheets of statistics, I could pick out ones that made it look like red states and religious countries were better.  I see no reason to trust someone as biased as Harris when it comes to presenting statistics."

I understand your reluctance as statistics are misused all the time. One thing that comes to my mind is that a reason those countries have higher standards is because they have better more equitable health care systems. But I'm sure what these statistics indicate run counter to your experience and logic.

Two points. This isn't Sam Harris "saying" these things. It's the United Nations and other research I had previously read about in newspapers/magazines.

Secondly, you call Sam Harris "biased" and, being human, he is. But perhaps you are responding to what he says out of your own bias. As secular humanists we value as an ideal seeing the world clearly as it actually is. Science is a good example of that impulse. Obviously we fail miserably all the time but our ideal is openness and responding without bias to new information.

I would submit to you that theism is just the opposite. True believers don't value seeing clearly if what they see runs counter to their belief. Again, we all do that, but the ideal for theists is not openness but faith. Faith is the supreme virtue and anything that doesn't support faith is suppressed not only by the individual but is encouraged to be suppressed by the religious group. Religious resistence to the findings of science is an example.

[jacknky]

"Statistics on these subjects are hard to believe and substantiate, I just don't see a lot of people breaking down the doors of Sweden like they are in the US, why is that?   

So to answer your question, I don't think non-theism is compatible with a "good life" because a "good life" to me is based on ones relationship with God and how well that person fulfilling their purpose, not just receiving free healthcare."

I googled the study which evidently is conducted each year. The 2007 version has the US at #12, higher than Denmark and the United Kingdom. I don't think Mr. harris' point is that a high level of religiosity correlates to societal disfunction but that, unlike theistic claims, neither does secularism.

I understand that to you a "good life" is based on your relationship with God. I hope you'll understand that for those of us who don't share your beliefs a relationship with God has little or no meaning. Humans can't agree on what a relationship with God means. We can agree more on what reducing crime and poverty means.

[jacknky]

El,
"But why is it better for all of mankind to reduce crime and poverty when we can't even be sure that we are defining it correctly?"

I'm not sure I understand the points you're making in this post. Do you think the answers to  these questions are in the Bible?

[jacknky]

El,
"If it could be believed that by killing unborn babies that society would be better off as a whole, should we allow that to happen?"

Yes, this is a tough issue, one where reasonable people can disagree. Does the Bible address abortion? There are some modern issues where Christians have to use their reason and experience just like the rest of us because the Bible doesn't address them.

But as the studies mentioned in the original post points out, highly theistic societies are no better at solving them than secular ones.

[Faithfulee]

The life I am interested is in mine and that of my Family.

As a Christian,  I will affirm the Christianity  is the good life for me.

My Christian teaching is simple.  Love God and love your neighbor as  yourself.  I try to live that discipline and  reflect it in my life. I encourage all to do the same.

The statistics are meaningless inasmuch as the US and most industrial societies are not truly “religious”.  Was Italy one of the  “religious” countries? 

Christianity is a personal religion that brings to us practitioners “the peace that passeth understanding”  That’s  ok by me and my family and most dedicated Christians.

And I live in the Northeast (summers, anyway)

God bless all.

[jacknky]

Well gee, Lee, go ahead and make it personal. LOL

This conversation arose from another board where a believer asserted that non-theists don't live as good a life as theists. I provided some information that contradicted that assertion. My belief is that there are many paths to a happy life, not just one. Probably those of a supernatural bent need to find a religion and stick to it but that doesn't work for some of us.

[Faithfulee]

Well gee, Lee, go ahead and make it personal. LOL

This conversation arose from another board where a believer asserted that non-theists don't live as good a life as theists. I provided some information that contradicted that assertion. My belief is that there are many paths to a happy life, not just one. Probably those of a supernatural bent need to find a religion and stick to it but that doesn't work for some of us.

Christianity is a personal faith, so I make no apologies for making imy comments personal

It is your ignorance of the faith and of "nature" that enables you to use the word "superatural" To me and most believers,  Christianity (and probably most religious followers) would not believe their faith is supernatural. By using the term, you define yourself more than me.

God Bless.

[jacknky]

"It is your ignorance of the faith and of "nature" that enables you to use the word "superatural" To me and most believers,  Christianity (and probably most religious followers) would not believe their faith is supernatural. By using the term, you define yourself more than me."

That's interesting, Lee. Here's the definition of supernatural:

1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal. 
2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity. 

How is my use of that term incorrect for Christianity?

[sferrari17]

I absolutely agree with Lee.  Christianity is about saving individuals.  People may get caught up in numbers, but ultimately, the reason someone witnesses is not to increase the power of the church but to save that person's soul.  We witness because we care deeply about the fate of that person.  Religion may not make a society particularly better as a whole, but that is not what it is designed to do. That is not the purpose of Christianity- we are concerned with heavenly affairs, not those of the earth.

Also, I think jacknky is right in describing our beliefs as supernatural.  We believe that many things are possible outside of the realm of what we consider the 'natural realm', such as miracles, healings, visions, etc... Although I wouldn't necessarily think in those terms, I don't disagree with them.

[jacknky]

"we are concerned with heavenly affairs, not those of the earth."

As one who cares very much about this earth I find that attitude a little scary.

[sferrari17]

don't wet yourself, jacknky.  I won't bite. 

If you think about it, how could that be scary?  We are more concerned with things that matter when we get to heaven- building relationships, loving each other, and being a servant- than in buying a nice house, getting a trophy wife, or being successful by societies standards.  I think everyone, religious or otherwise, could stand to get a strong dose of that attitude.

[Faithfulee]

"It is your ignorance of the faith and of "nature" that enables you to use the word "superatural" To me and most believers,  Christianity (and probably most religious followers) would not believe their faith is supernatural. By using the term, you define yourself more than me."

That's interesting, Lee. Here's the definition of supernatural:

1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal. 
2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity. 

How is my use of that term incorrect for Christianity?

Define it as you like.  Simply it is an attempt to explain something that we don't fully understand.  So what do you call things that we don't understand??

There are miracles of healing every day, and I attribute those to God.  Does that make me a bad person.

And I am more concerned with earthly things than those of heaven.  Do you deny that I am a Christian.  I am completely comfortable that If I live my life fully and strive to "become the best that God made me to be" that I wll find a wonderful place after my time here on earth.  Not bad, eh??  Wish you were here.

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Jack, I wonder if some people have a different definition of 'the good life'. Some people find a great comfort in believing in a God who is in control and wants good things for them, particularly if they haven't had a person in their life to do such things. Also, it seems a lot of the problems you have mentioned go along with poverty, and we both know that the parts of the country we live in (I am in Georgia) have a good number of poor people.

Do you have any stats regarding how many of the people in the situations you mention in this country/the South are religious, to what level, and when they came across it? Many of us come by religion (or make a more solid commitment to it) later in life, after having a lot of *interesting* things in life happen to us. Also, I'm sure you have seen that a lot of people say they are Christian because they were raised in it or feel the need to 'pick a religion' when asked, but who don't really follow or hold to it in their present lives.

All that said, I think life is what you make of it, like most things. I have been around Christians who have certain ideas of how things should be and who sort of dump on/blame people whose lives aren't up to snuff. I think I mentioned before in another thread how some Prosperity Gospel/evangelical/fundamentalist Christians gave me a lot of grief about certain things, and how I am much happier now that I am in a more liberal church.

[Faithfulee]

All that said, I think life is what you make of it, like most things. I have been around Christians who have certain ideas of how things should be and who sort of dump on/blame people whose lives aren't up to snuff. I think I mentioned before in another thread how some Prosperity Gospel/evangelical/fundamentalist Christians gave me a lot of grief about certain things, and how I am much happier now that I am in a more liberal church.

Looking out for others is part of the Christian discipline no matter what branch of Christianity one believes in.
Part of the "good life" is helping others of course.  As one matures, retires, and reflects on life, as I am doing,  I find that helping myself and my wife address "maturity" issues is as importnt as helping others.  Additionally,  we are engaged with our children, who are engaged in "helping others" in a variety of ways.  Some of these are being done outside the church.  I am proud of them and of course in the degree that I may have influrenced them in their outreach.  It is part of my "good life."

Another thought that I neglected to mention above.  Part of the Christian experience is contemplation of the "hereafter".   The Christian promise of the opportunity to once again be with those whom you have loved in your lifetime is a wonderful and sobering thought.  It too is part of my "good life".

God Blss

[jacknky]

17,
"If you think about it, how could that be scary?  We are more concerned with things that matter when we get to heaven- building relationships, loving each other, and being a servant- than in buying a nice house, getting a trophy wife, or being successful by societies standards.  I think everyone, religious or otherwise, could stand to get a strong dose of that attitude."

I thought you might be referring to the unconscious attitude that it doesn't matter what we do to the earth because you'll be going to heaven soon. BTW, I'm very happy to hear that some Evangelicals are beginning to tak ean interest in the environment.

Of course all the things you mentioned have nothing to do with being a Christian but rather are available to all of us. One doesn't have to believe in heaven to see the emptiness of "trophy wives" or the value of building good relationships. Christians don't have a monopoly on acting in skillful ways. They simply attribute their skillful actions to God rather than themselves and their ability to reason and learn from experience.

[jacknky]

Lee,
"Define it as you like.  Simply it is an attempt to explain something that we don't fully understand.  So what do you call things that we don't understand??"

I call them "things we don't understand". Simply because there are things we don't understand doesn't mean God made them. It means we don't understand.

During WWII the Cargo Cults came in contact with the Western world and its technology for the first time. There was much about what they saw they didn't understand either. So they would, for instance, build airplane alters and worship airplanes because they didn't understand how things so heavy could fly. Now there is less we don't understand but the principle is the same. We humans tend to attribute what we don't understand in life to a supernatural source.

"There are miracles of healing every day, and I attribute those to God.  Does that make me a bad person."

I wish you had participated in the board I started where I posited the question that if God heals the sick through miracles why doesn't he ever heal amputees by growing them a new limb?

"And I am more concerned with earthly things than those of heaven.  Do you deny that I am a Christian.  I am completely comfortable that If I live my life fully and strive to "become the best that God made me to be" that I wll find a wonderful place after my time here on earth.  Not bad, eh??  Wish you were here."

I am here.

[jacknky]

BD,
"Jack, I wonder if some people have a different definition of 'the good life'. Some people find a great comfort in believing in a God who is in control and wants good things for them, particularly if they haven't had a person in their life to do such things. Also, it seems a lot of the problems you have mentioned go along with poverty, and we both know that the parts of the country we live in (I am in Georgia) have a good number of poor people."

I realize that most folks find comfort in religion. The "good life" that these statistics are about are aspects that can be measured and I guess "comfort" is hard to measure except anecdotally.

Yes, you are correct. The regions of the country that are the most religious tend also to have more poverty. Perhaps that is another correlation but the point was not that religion leads to societal disfunction but rather that secularism doesn't lead to disfunction. A point a Christian had made the assertion that non-theism leads to personal and societal disfunction on another board. I thought this was worthy of discussion so I started another board with my answer.

"Do you have any stats regarding how many of the people in the situations you mention in this country/the South are religious, to what level, and when they came across it?"

No, I don't have stats. I'm sure that whatever the rule is there are plenty of exceptions.

"All that said, I think life is what you make of it, like most things. I have been around Christians who have certain ideas of how things should be and who sort of dump on/blame people whose lives aren't up to snuff. I think I mentioned before in another thread how some Prosperity Gospel/evangelical/fundamentalist Christians gave me a lot of grief about certain things, and how I am much happier now that I am in a more liberal church."

I agree with you. One of Sam Harris' points is that liberal Christians tend to "enable" their more narrow thinking bretheren by not challenging their assumption more. If liberal Christians give conservative Christians a pass for harmful teachings because of their faith in faith then  liberal Christians are encouraging their abuses. What do you think?

[jacknky]

"Looking out for others is part of the Christian discipline no matter what branch of Christianity one believes in."

I know it is. I just like to remind Christians that compassion and caring for others is considered a virtue across cultures, religions and humanist philosophies. Christians have no monopoly on basic human virtues but sometimes I think they tend to ignore that fact.


"Part of the "good life" is helping others of course.  As one matures, retires, and reflects on life, as I am doing,  I find that helping myself and my wife address "maturity" issues is as importnt as helping others.  Additionally,  we are engaged with our children, who are engaged in "helping others" in a variety of ways.  Some of these are being done outside the church.  I am proud of them and of course in the degree that I may have influrenced them in their outreach.  It is part of my "good life.""

I can't argue with that. Again, I wasn't trying to make the point that religion causes societal disfunction but rather to make the point that secularism doesn't cause disfunction either. I am not impugning your religious beliefs, at least not directly.