Christianity- the Good Life

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

i have no issue calling people who teach harmful things on it, or at least going behind them and helping the people they 'helped'.

[Faithfulee]

"Looking out for others is part of the Christian discipline no matter what branch of Christianity one believes in."

I know it is. I just like to remind Christians that compassion and caring for others is considered a virtue across cultures, religions and humanist philosophies. Christians have no monopoly on basic human virtues but sometimes I think they tend to ignore that fact.


"Part of the "good life" is helping others of course.  As one matures, retires, and reflects on life, as I am doing,  I find that helping myself and my wife address "maturity" issues is as importnt as helping others.  Additionally,  we are engaged with our children, who are engaged in "helping others" in a variety of ways.  Some of these are being done outside the church.  I am proud of them and of course in the degree that I may have influrenced them in their outreach.  It is part of my "good life.""

I can't argue with that. Again, I wasn't trying to make the point that religion causes societal disfunction but rather to make the point that secularism doesn't cause disfunction either. I am not impugning your religious beliefs, at least not directly.

You are a secularist and I trust you are aware of "disfunction" in the world today.  Therefore you cannot deny that secularism causes disfunction.  What else is there?

In fact one can make the case that some religions, especially Islam,  cause the disfunction in the world.  But that requires on to believe that the believers of Islam promote disfunction.  That is obviously the case (the recent UK study shows that 1/3 of young UK Muslims will kill for Islam.

Christianity is different.  It is matue and promotes the idea of Peace, Justice, and harmony.  It certainly does not condone killing in the name of Christianity.

Another reason why Christianity is the "good life"

[metis]

Christianity is different.  It is matue and promotes the idea of Peace, Justice, and harmony.  It certainly does not condone killing in the name of Christianity.

Another reason why Christianity is the "good life"

When one looks at the history of Christianity, it's very much a mixed bag, as it is with essentially all religions.  Christianity has had a brutal past and we simply don't have to go back very far at all to find evidence of that simple fact.  However, to repeat, this is essentially true with all religions as well.  Religion is like having a car-- it can be used for good or for evil. 

[Acumen]

In my opinion, no Christianity organization should ever involve itself with politics.  That is not what Christ intended.

[jacknky]

Lee,
"You are a secularist and I trust you are aware of "disfunction" in the world today.  Therefore you cannot deny that secularism causes disfunction.  What else is there?"

I would propose that "disfunction" is a part of the human condition caused by ignorances such as greed, jealosy and hatred, and is present more or less equally in religious and non-religious societies. nevertheless, the UN study I quoted in post #1 should at least give theists pause.

"Christianity is different.  It is matue and promotes the idea of Peace, Justice, and harmony.  It certainly does not condone killing in the name of Christianity.

Another reason why Christianity is the "good life""

I think the main reason Christianity is not as intrusive in our lives is because most Christian nations have secular governments and therefore Christianity doesn't have the power many Islamic governments have. Granted I understand there are aspects of Islamic teachings that promote theocracies but I think history has taught us that Christianity is capable of theocratic abuses if they get the power.

[Acumen]

I think the main reason Christianity is not as intrusive in our lives is because most Christian nations have secular governments and therefore Christianity doesn't have the power many Islamic governments have. Granted I understand there are aspects of Islamic teachings that promote theocracies but I think history has taught us that Christianity is capable of theocratic abuses if they get the power.

The problem is that Christianity should never be in power - it's contrary to the nature of it's teachings.  The principles of the gospel message, when applied to national powers or governments for instance, will destroy such powers or governments if such principles are strictly held as they were originally intended.  For this reason, various gospel principles much change or be compromised in order to fit the policies of a national power or government.

[jacknky]

I agree, Acumen. Sound the alarm!

[Acumen]

Yep.   

[Faithfulee]

Christianity is different.  It is matue and promotes the idea of Peace, Justice, and harmony.  It certainly does not condone killing in the name of Christianity.

Another reason why Christianity is the "good life"

When one looks at the history of Christianity, it's very much a mixed bag, as it is with essentially all religions.  Christianity has had a brutal past and we simply don't have to go back very far at all to find evidence of that simple fact.  However, to repeat, this is essentially true with all religions as well.  Religion is like having a car-- it can be used for good or for evil. 

Bue we live in the present and Christianity does not have an 'evil" reputation currently.

Unlike Islam, Christians take responsibility for our "evil" ones and we actually do something about it.

[jacknky]

"Christians take responsibility for our "evil" ones and we actually do something about it."

I submit that is largely because most Christian nations are secular governments, something most Islamic countries lack.

[Acumen]

I'll have to agree with Jack on this point.  I think when Christian theocracies exist, it essentially negates all of the most important Christian precepts.  In other words, once a Church becomes the head of state, that institution is no longer a Church - they are no longer serving the Lord, but rather themselves or the people.

Could you imagine if real Christian principles were implemented on a state level?  How long would a national government survive obeying precepts like turning the other cheek, loving your enemies, supporting the poor, widows, and orphans, going the extra mile, or refusing to be a stumbling block?  I would say such an entity would survive long enough to see their first international conflict, then they would perish.

[metis]

In my opinion, no Christianity organization should ever involve itself with politics.  That is not what Christ intended.

I'm not certain that I can speak for what Jesus may or may not have intended in this arena.  But, either way, I do have to ask a follow up question.  There are those who so completely agree with you that they also believe that a Christian should not be involved with the political process at all.  Why would it be OK for a Christian to be politically involved, but repugnant for a Christian organization to be involved?  When Jesus said "render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar...", was he not talking to individuals?

 And on top of this, we have to remember that a group is simply a collection of individuals, so why wouldn't individuals fall under the same restraints?  Do we somehow lose or individuality merely because we join some group?   

[metis]

Could you imagine if real Christian principles were implemented on a state level?  How long would a national government survive obeying precepts like turning the other cheek, loving your enemies, supporting the poor, widows, and orphans, going the extra mile, or refusing to be a stumbling block?    

That would be awefully nice to see!

 

I would say such an entity would survive long enough to see their first international conflict, then they would perish.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.  For example, Costa Rica abondoned its military decades ago.  And even if one fears being taken over, does that legitimize negating what Jesus apparantly said?  Did Jesus say anything, for example, that lended support to the Zealots?  Yes, there's always a danger of persecution and even death, but doesn't that also hold true for those who justify and fight wars?     

[jacknky]

metis,
Do you not think WWII that stopped Hitler was justified?

[Faithfulee]

"Christians take responsibility for our "evil" ones and we actually do something about it."

I submit that is largely because most Christian nations are secular governments, something most Islamic countries lack.

Of course we area and as pointed out below, the combination of Government and Religion is a very dangerous thing.  We see that in the Muslim countries and they are a danger to humankind because of this.

My point is that Christians respond as denominational Christians when they sense evil. The principle call to action is from their members and not government.

To me Christianity is a personal discipline.  I participate in several denominations and respect the teachings of all.  But the Christian "good life" that I lead is based on my personal acceptance of the life and lessons of Jesus Christ.

This is a lesson of peace and non-violence as part of my personal demeanor.  I don't abhor war because it often is justified as in the case of the War against Islamic  Terrorism in which we are currently engaged. I personally think that the church's should do MORE to promote this war and the spread of Jesus Christ's message of Peace.

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Bue we live in the present and Christianity does not have an 'evil" reputation currently.

Unlike Islam, Christians take responsibility for our "evil" ones and we actually do something about it.

That would depend entirely on who you talk to. I can think of several Pagans or atheists or others who have had an 'interesting' time of it living in some areas of the US and not being Christian. At best, my friends have had to stay silent, but at worst they have been harassed and/or threatened. I had Jewish friends in high school who were afraid to talk about their faith because they had been harassed so much in the past, and these friends are in their late 20's, so they are not talking about some bygone era. And we won't even talk about how some parts of the Bible Belt consider only evangelical/fundamentalist Protestant Christianity to be valid, and therefore aren't very nice to Catholics or others they consider not to be 'true Christians'.  I don't know if you can see where I live on my profile, but I live in the South US, and saw this sort of thing when I lived in southern North Carolina moreso than here in Georgia, but I am sure it exists here too.

Deny if you wish, but I have seen it done myself. And this current administration's seeming penchant for trying to legislate Christian morality bothers and scares me. Like Acumen, I don't think Christianity has any business in politics; we are told to give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and politics would fit that bill IMO.  Maybe it would work if the people pushing Christianity as law were trying to further things that would benefit everyone (like welfare programs or healthcare), but this is not the way some people are trying to use the faith in politics.

[Acumen]

In my opinion, no Christianity organization should ever involve itself with politics.  That is not what Christ intended.

I'm not certain that I can speak for what Jesus may or may not have intended in this arena.  But, either way, I do have to ask a follow up question.  There are those who so completely agree with you that they also believe that a Christian should not be involved with the political process at all.  Why would it be OK for a Christian to be politically involved, but repugnant for a Christian organization to be involved?  When Jesus said "render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar...", was he not talking to individuals?

I don't believe that Christians should necessarily stay out of politics.  I believe that Christian precepts meant to apply to individual souls ought not be converted into government policy for a few different reasons.  The passage you quoted underscores the point that we are spiritual and earthly creatures that participate in both environments.  As long as Jews participated in Caesar's providences, they needed to abide by Caesar's rules.  This passage suggests that involving ourselves in society is practically unavoidable, and there is no reason to suppose that we are to deprive ourselves from mechanics of government.

The goal of Christianity is spiritual - involves practicing holiness and attaining salvation.  There is nothing noted in the NT that we are obligated to protect ourselves, but rather we are taught to turn the other cheek and to love our enemies.  These precepts aren't intended to eliminate suffering, but to endure it with character. 

The goal of government is to protect us from harm.  These two goals aren't the same, and therefore Christian principles ought not be applied to government policy based upon the misunderstanding that it's the right thing to do.   

And on top of this, we have to remember that a group is simply a collection of individuals, so why wouldn't individuals fall under the same restraints?  Do we somehow lose or individuality merely because we join some group?

Perhaps, I'm not sure.  I would suggest that losing individuality isn't the essential problem, but rather it is function.  Government was created with a specific purpose to protect us from enemies and the harm they wish to inflict.  Christianity is based upon the gospel message of faith, love, and hope in a resurrection unto salvation.  If Christianity were applied to government policy, then there really is no need for government is there? 

[gracebyfaith]

If "Christianity" has an evil reputation (past or present) it wouldn't be because those responsible for this reputation are being Christ-like.  
Just because we have labeled others or ourselves Christians doesn't mean we are truly what we claim to be.

I'm not sure what liberal Christianity represents.  I guess I would consider myself a conservative Christian, not that I claim to be better than another.  If any Christian would justify "evil" behavior, they shouldn't claim to be Christian.  This is why God's name is blasphemed, people who have the "name" but act contrary to its teachings.

Oh well, like Lee says - this is a personal walk, and each one will give an account.  By the way, being concerned about our neighbor (hungry, poor, fatherless...) is very Christian.  I'm glad to see Lee has raised children who love their neighbors.


Grace

[Faithfulee]

Bue we live in the present and Christianity does not have an 'evil" reputation currently.

Unlike Islam, Christians take responsibility for our "evil" ones and we actually do something about it.

Deny if you wish, but I have seen it done myself. And this current administration's seeming penchant for trying to legislate Christian morality bothers and scares me. Like Acumen, I don't think Christianity has any business in politics; we are told to give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and politics would fit that bill IMO.  Maybe it would work if the people pushing Christianity as law were trying to further things that would benefit everyone (like welfare programs or healthcare), but this is not the way some people are trying to use the faith in politics.

Certainly politics and religion don't mix, we agree on that.

But this isn't about politics.  Christianity is a good life for me and I hope for you also.  I find nothing wrong with dedicated Christians prosceliting and trying to bring more into their faith.  I don't agree with the more fundamentalist faiths but they do good work.  A cousin of mine is a Fundamentalist Bible teaching missionary in Urban America.  I respect her work and her life even though I have some misgivings about the content of her ministry.   I have no doubt that her charges come away from their studies as better Christians and better people.

Acumen

The goal of Christianity is spiritual - involves practicing holiness and attaining salvation.  There is nothing noted in the NT that we are obligated to protect ourselves, but rather we are taught to turn the other cheek and to love our enemies.  These precepts aren't intended to eliminate suffering, but to endure it with character.

Good point, I agree

Grace

I'm not sure what liberal Christianity represents.  I guess I would consider myself a conservative Christian, not that I claim to be better than another.  If any Christian would justify "evil" behavior, they shouldn't claim to be Christian.  This is why God's name is blasphemed, people who have the "name" but act contrary to its teachings.

Oh well, like Lee says - this is a personal walk, and each one will give an account.  By the way, being concerned about our neighbor (hungry, poor, fatherless...) is very Christian.  I'm glad to see Lee has raised children who love their neighbors.

Thank you. The personal part is that my kids and grandkids are of all different shades of religious thinking (some agnostic), but the Christian message of love and peace seems to have been planted, and for that I thank God every day.

[Acumen]

I'm not sure what liberal Christianity represents.

To me, liberal Christianity was always the sort of Christianity that accepted what was convenient and rejected what was inconvenient.