Pressure?

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

I have been in non-denominational/Pentecostal-leaning churches and had some experiences that disturbed me. For instance, I tend to be really peaceful when I am in church. But I have been where people expected a certain outward reaction, like singing and jumping in the aisles. It was assumed that, if someone was not doing those things or speaking in tongues, that they 'didn't really have Jesus' or were somehow less Christian than everyone else. I know that is not true, but apparently they thought that I was 'ashamed' or 'squelching' the Spirit if I sat quiet and reverent.  I had people bug me about this so much that one time I just started babbling nonsense and they thought I was speaking in tongues. I know it isn't good to fake that, but that was the only thing that would get them to leave me alone.

I have also had people from the same persuasions encourage me and others to eschew medical treatment for things that were clearly demonstrated to be medical issues and not spiritual ones (i.e., depression, sinus issues, cancer). But it was assumed that all things had a spiritual cause. When I tried going without meds for my bipolar disorder and was told that I was not healed because of my losing faith or unresolved sin, and that I had a 'spirit' that needed to be cast out.  Oh, and, it was also believed that my mother died of her cancer rather than being supernaturally healed on this planet because of her lack of faith/right belief. No compassion whatsoever.  I was so disgusted and upset that I stayed out of church for a while, and I have had people in the clergy tell me that they are surprised I am even still a Christian at all!

 Is this normal Pentecostal belief, or were these people out of the ordinary? I have never seen this sort of thing, the sort of 'pressure to perform' or eschewing medical treatment in any other sort of Christian.

[Acumen]

BD,

I want to apologize for your Pentecostal experience.  I think this is a serious problem in Pentecostal circles, and it stems from ignorance and pride.  Pentecostal preachers do a serious disservice to their congregations when they tend to stress outward behavior as the "end all" of spirituality.  It's very Pharisaic and entirely prideful.

First, I too have undergone similar experiences.  And for this reason, I know your experience with Pentecostals are real.  I am a Oneness Pentecostal and have been so since birth.  And I can tell you first hand that there are serious misunderstandings in Pentecostal circles involving the gift of tongues and joyous worship.  However, I might add that the whole "don't seek medical attention" is something Pentecostals typically don't do. 

Second, the notion that miraculous healing is entirely dependent upon an individual's faith is somewhat of a difficult concept.  Although I agree that faith is a critical element, I do think it's misleading to blame the lack of healing on one's faith exclusively.

James 5:16-18 lays out the framework for powerful prayer and healing.  If one were to examine the passage, one will find that there are many components involved in healing via prayer such as personal confession, righteousness, and earnestness.

Faith, admittedly, is the key component, but there are more components as well.  Here is an excerpt of a post I made to someone inquiring about the effectiveness of prayer:

James lays out a few precepts for effective prayer.  First, he indicates that prayers should be offered up in faith.  Faith, or πίστις/pistis, means assurance or a firm conviction of the truth.  In other words, James expects the believer to not to doubt what God can do, or what He is willing to do.  In James' words "But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind."

Second, James indicates the believer ought to confess his sins.  Again, the word is ἐξομολογέω/exomologeō, which means to profess, or to acknowledge openly and joyfully.  Confession is an expression of humility, and humility has a special effect on God's choice to answer prayer and to elicit forgiveness.  In Peter's words, "God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble."  Without humility, God will oppose your petition.

Third, James emphasizes the attribute of righteousness in the effective prayer of a believer.  Righteousness (δίκαιος/dikaios) means a conformity to God's laws, or a right way of living.  In the Pauline sense, righteousness isn't limited to external actions as with the Pharisees.  Rather, it includes the intent and will do conform to God's specific ordinances and thereby provoking God to justify the sinner through an act of faith by grace.  So, according to Christian doctrine, the bar of righteousness is set at rebirth and continues through one's faith commitment to God.

And fourth, James alludes to the earnest prayer of Elijah.  Earnestly (προσευχή/proseuchē) has an obscure meaning, which has led translators to understand it as a "real asking" or a "real petition."  The idea, I think, is to denote sincerity or seriousness of prayer.  After all, if one is communicating with the almighty God of the universe, it is most suitable to do so with an honest intent and sober attitude.

So, we see a number of components, other than faith, must be factored into prayer according to James for it to be effective. 


I hope this helps.

 

     

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Thank you for your explanation. Pretty much any faith group I can think of has their problems. But, one question. Would a general faith in God be sufficient? I was told by a number of people on a number of occasions that I had to believe that God would fulfill the particular request I was praying for.

My faith, however, is in the fact that God will do what He deems best for us, which might mean that we might not get exactly what we ask for. There have been plenty of times when I prayed earnestly asking for something and did not get it, but it turned out that what I was asking for was not what was best for me. I am willing to submit to His will because He knows better than I do what would be best for me, but the Pentecostals I was around told me that this was not the 'right kind' of faith. Their idea of the 'right kind' of faith feels wrong to me, the idea of telling God what to do. But I could have misunderstood. I hope I have.

And, why would things like high blood pressure or other health problems passed down through families be referred to as 'generational curses'?  Why would it be assumed to be a spiritual thing? My ex believed that he did not have to take care of himself/lose weight/what what he eats, etc because his family had not had that 'curse' of that kind of health problem, and that his faith would 'protect' him. And my family did have the 'curse', because my family has had issues like that and I do try to watch out for myself so that I don't have the same problems my father has had. My father takes care of himself fairly well, but he is 67 and overweight, so it isn't hard to see how he might have blood pressure issues. It was explained to me that if I wanted to break that 'curse', it was a matter of my faith and prayer more than taking care of my health. Was this explained correctly? Is this understanding the correct one, or was my ex completely off? One Pentecostal lady I knew said that he did not explain it very well, but I am afraid I don't remember much about her explanation.

[SquirleyWurley]

When I considered myself Pentecostal, it seemed to me that the issue was, some people are over-eager to explain/understand spiritual gifts, and as Acumen indicated, a sort of spiritual pride kicks in.  Without understanding of spiritual subjects or of other people, or the wisdom or humility to apply understanding, people lust after results based on hopes and fears, and then there's this idea, some deep felt need or fear could be overcome if one just had the right magical formula, thought about things in exactly the right way, was obedient enough/legalistic enough, etc.

But I knew of several people when I was Pentecostal who were wary of such traps.  Sometimes I wandered into that superstitious fear/hope thing, myself, but I was cautious not to go too far into magical thinking.  I think you made a very good point, not everything is good or wise, and we don't know everything.

There's also a question of power and covenant.  Some feel that God does not answer certain prayers simply because in the past he committed himself to some mysterious covenants and he can't go back on his word, he has to wait until conditions are such that he can act without breaking the covenant.  Some attribute this to promises with angels from ancient days, while others speculate about the nature of the fall, etc., to deal with this, but it amounts to certain limits which God put on himself, for a time period, which he must honor, because of his nature to be honorable about such commitments.  When I was in accord with conventional Pentecostal beliefs, I felt this might explain things in that it didn't put it all on faith/obedience/will.  I also felt at the time that 'Word Faith' (along with the 'Prosperity Gospel') and much of the talk about 'Generational Curses' and 'Deliverance' was magical thinking, worldliness, a distortion, severe error, heresy, not Biblical, but just the speculations of individuals, and dangerous speculations/obsessions at that. 

Later when I was less concerned about 'orthodoxy' I considered whether it was simply the nature of a good being to be limited in power in certain situations.

[Acumen]

When I considered myself Pentecostal

No wonder we get along so well.   

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

SW, in NC and here in GA (probably other places around the South too), the Word of Faith/Prosperity Gospel teaching tends to find its feet in Pentecostal-type churches. Or, in non-denominational churches who may as well call themselves Pentecostal. You used much nicer terms than I would for them. I am getting better at being able to see signs for them without getting angry and thinking about how I was treated and how bad it could have gotten (it's a damned good thing I wasn't suicidal at the time I was being told to go off my meds and be 'healed by God', as I have been in the past).  I don't like feeling this way because I am generally a fairly positive and open person, and I came out okay in general, but the next person might not be so lucky. I was ready to try anything because I was sick of meds and how some of them taper off/don't work as well after a while, and that was the stage I was in.

Acumen, who is that in your avatar? Mine is three of my five cats in the bathtub.

[SquirleyWurley]

Acumen,

Granted there is some baggage from bad experience, and sometimes in disagreements I get snippy or controversialist/argumentative, but I do try to remember what it was like, remember the positives of the experiences and some of the insights which I still agree with.

When it comes to both Pentecostalism and Catholicism, I was lucky enough to meet several very kind, charitable, sincere, and humble people who I identified with and was able to encourage in their spiritual path as they encouraged my own spiritual path.  I still identify with several aspects of these paths.

BD,

When it comes to deep personal wounds involving manipulation, injustice, abuse, it can be hard to integrate the positive and the negative experiences.  I've found in some cases that trying to focus too hard on the positive lead to oscillations between confusion, idealization, obsession, and irruptions of the negative, while working on acknowledging both aspects of the complex situation leads to integration and perspective of the whole experience, healing.

[thedefender]

Beutiful Dreamer,

There is a lot to say about your initial post. First of all thank you for posting. Secondly, I am sorry that your Pentecostal experience was less than desirable. I cannot speak to the exact circumstances of what went on during your experience, but what you have described is largely true across the board.


My simple suggestion is that you not return to those churches where you feel that kind of pressure. The pressure that you felt is certainly not healthy. Nor does it sound like the church you went to is grounded in God's word. If this church is all "hype" jumpping and shouting etc. without a solid Biblical foundation it seems more like a circus than a church.

I am 100% Trinitarian Pentecostal. No doubt about it, I love to shout and sing and raise my hands like the rest of my Pentecostal brothers and sisters, but there also has to be an understanding that how I worship should not be forced on anyone else.

My other suggestion would be for you to seek (fast and pray) for the real baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Derrick