I'm and atheist, here to be debated.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

Since atheism is really the lack of a stance, I can't really promote a topic for debate. 

I am here to address any thing that you want to present though....

all

[SUPERMAN]

What evidence is there for a rational rejection of God?

[Acumen]

El,

People in glass houses . . .

btw, it's pristine, not prestine.

[Acumen]

Since atheism is really the lack of a stance, I can't really promote a topic for debate.

I think atheism is certainly a stance.  It's a stance that God doesn't exist -- and it's usually based upon philosophical arguments concerning human suffering.

[BuffyVmprSlyr]

Isn't choosing NOT to believe still positive action?

(ie. sometimes not making a decision IS a decision....)

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

What evidence is there for a rational rejection of God?

The evidence is that there is no evidence that I have seen that would allow for my acceptance of the concept. 

all

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

"I'm and athiest,..."

Let's start by debating your grammar.

 

It sucks, what's to debate?   

I am sure something will present itself soon enough.  Why don't you invite some of your atheist friends over.  But please only rational ones, I am not interested in seeing "Daldanius" and "Whatson2nd" on these prestine boards.

 

I will look into it, but I understand what you are saying.  Any people that I would invite over would be selected and invited through email. The others would come quickly enough, but I don't want this to become a B-net clone any more than you do.

 

all

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

Since atheism is really the lack of a stance, I can't really promote a topic for debate.

I think atheism is certainly a stance.  It's a stance that God doesn't exist -- and it's usually based upon philosophical arguments concerning human suffering.

You're thinking of strong, or positive atheism, which is stating that there is no god.  There are many kinds of atheist, and even more kinds of agnostic.

When speaking in generalities, I tend more towards the weak, or negative atheistic position of "I don't believe in a god".  There is a big difference between stating that there is no possibility that a thing exists and that you do not believe that it does.  Although I do take a stronger stance when it comes to some specific god descriptions. 

Many atheists do at least tend to lead off with the argument of how human suffering could exist in a universe created by a loving deity, but that is not the only reason.  That is as much for debate purposes as anything else.  I have not heard of an acceptable answer to the riddle of Epicurus yet.  But that's ok, there are things that all of us cannot answer.  For debate purposes it works beautifully, especially if returned in the light of someone claiming that their deity is one of love.  It does get old though, and in unstructured debate leads to repetition and hard feelings. 

So, unless you feel the need to bring up how loving your god is, I won't use the universe and it's suffering as an example of just how loving that deity is not. 

The other thing I will not bring up is the idea of people killing in the name of religion.  People who kill would do so for other reasons if they didn't have religious influence.  I am only stating this here for informative purposes, but I feel that arguments of this nature are not worthy of being considered as reasons to not consider a religion and if the only reason why you don't believe in that religion is because people have killed in it's name, you need to re-examine the tenants of that religion.

all

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

Isn't choosing NOT to believe still positive action?

(ie. sometimes not making a decision IS a decision....)

Hi Buffy!  I'm a fan.

I don't believe that a person really can choose to believe something of which they feel there is no basis for. 

Say you are walking down the street one morning when the sun is shining, the birds are singing, their is not a cloud in the big beautiful sky, and it's around 70 F.  You walk past a person who is pulling their coat around their head, holding a newspaper over it as if to shelter it from something.  This person arouses your interest.  You say, in passing "Beautiful morning".  They look at you like you are insane and reply "Are you kidding?  It's raining cats and dogs, I'm soaked to the bone, and need to get home to dry off."

Can you choose to believe that they are actually the ones who are correct? 

all

[Acumen]

All,

I will look into it, but I understand what you are saying.  Any people that I would invite over would be selected and invited through email. The others would come quickly enough, but I don't want this to become a B-net clone any more than you do.

Right, I think this forum has bragging rights because many of the posters here were hand-selected from other forums, and therefore it has an academic nature and a courteous disposition.  It's a fairly small and new forum, but it only takes a handful of aggressive posters to slop it up a bit. 

-Acumen
 

[Acumen]

All,

You're thinking of strong, or positive atheism, which is stating that there is no god.  There are many kinds of atheist, and even more kinds of agnostic.

And this is the only kind of atheism I've run into in the discipline of philosophy.  I've seen no books or philosophical attempts to defend the weak or negative atheism that you describe.

When speaking in generalities, I tend more towards the weak, or negative atheistic position of "I don't believe in a god".  There is a big difference between stating that there is no possibility that a thing exists and that you do not believe that it does.  Although I do take a stronger stance when it comes to some specific god descriptions.

But you must admit that even a weak or negative atheistic position is still a stance.  In fact, it must be a stance if there is any attempt to defend it rationally.

So, unless you feel the need to bring up how loving your god is, I won't use the universe and it's suffering as an example of just how loving that deity is not.

Okay.

The other thing I will not bring up is the idea of people killing in the name of religion.  People who kill would do so for other reasons if they didn't have religious influence.  I am only stating this here for informative purposes, but I feel that arguments of this nature are not worthy of being considered as reasons to not consider a religion and if the only reason why you don't believe in that religion is because people have killed in it's name, you need to re-examine the tenants of that religion.

Well, you're not going to make this board easy to use if you aren't willing to take any stances.   

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

All,

I will look into it, but I understand what you are saying.  Any people that I would invite over would be selected and invited through email. The others would come quickly enough, but I don't want this to become a B-net clone any more than you do.

Right, I think this forum has bragging rights because many of the posters here were hand-selected from other forums, and therefore it has an academic nature and a courteous disposition.  It's a fairly small and new forum, but it only takes a handful of aggressive posters to slop it up a bit. 

I suppose it would be up to us to keep those aggressive posters in check.  I've got no problems denouncing them as I see them, but in other areas it's kind of like herding cats.  Maybe if we can direct the discussions more as they occur we can keep them from devolving to the point where they have on other forums?

Just thinking out loud.

all

 

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

And this is the only kind of atheism I've run into in the discipline of philosophy.  I've seen no books or philosophical attempts to defend the weak or negative atheism that you describe.

That's likely because it takes very little to defend "I don't believe in a god".  What can be said about that aside from ad hominems?  You can present all the evidence you want, but if I don't buy it, I just don't buy it. 

But you must admit that even a weak or negative atheistic position is still a stance.  In fact, it must be a stance if there is any attempt to defend it rationally.

Well, you're not going to make this board easy to use if you aren't willing to take any stances.   

Ok, you have a point. 

Just for fun, as I see debate as fun, I'll take a stance.

I don't believe in any gods.  I don't believe in them because I have seen no convincing evidence that would lead me to believe in them. 

Because I was born and raised in a Christian family, and explored and attempted to have a relationship with the Christian deity, that never became established, I take the strong atheist stance towards the Christian god.  I believe that the Christian deity does not exist.  I do not believe this because of the existence of suffering, which can easily be explained from the believers pov as necessary for a learning and growth experience.   I believe this instead because for roughly two decades of my life I struggled to gain a relationship with this deity under the watchful eyes of parents and religious teachers who would offer me counsel as to what might help me establish this relationship.  I spent hours in prayer and study everyday to no avail.  I eventually came to the conclusion that there either wasn't a god as described, or it was snubbing me.  Either way I was done.  I would rather feel that there wasn't a deity as described than feel that I was rejected by it.

How's that?

all

[Acumen]

All,

I spent hours in prayer and study everyday to no avail.  I eventually came to the conclusion that there either wasn't a god as described, or it was snubbing me.  Either way I was done.  I would rather feel that there wasn't a deity as described than feel that I was rejected by it.

Thank you for your honesty.  It's strange how people can be in similar situations and take different routes.  Like you, I was brought up Christian by a watchful family grounded in the church.  I've spent countless hours in prayer for the healing of a malady I thought was ruining my life.  There wasn't a place I could go that allowed me to escape it.  For four years now, I've been praying for a remedy.  So far, it appears that the only remedies that presented itself are the ones I found by taking the time to research new drugs and try new things.  I haven't given up on God yet, even though at times it feels like He has given up on me.  Sometimes it's just easier to reject something as a defense mechanism for feeling rejected.  I know, I'm there.

-Acumen

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

All,

I spent hours in prayer and study everyday to no avail.  I eventually came to the conclusion that there either wasn't a god as described, or it was snubbing me.  Either way I was done.  I would rather feel that there wasn't a deity as described than feel that I was rejected by it.

Thank you for your honesty.  It's strange how people can be in similar situations and take different routes.  Like you, I was brought up Christian by a watchful family grounded in the church.  I've spent countless hours in prayer for the healing of a malady I thought was ruining my life.  There wasn't a place I could go that allowed me to escape it.  For four years now, I've been praying for a remedy.  So far, it appears that the only remedies that presented itself are the ones I found by taking the time to research new drugs and try new things.  I haven't given up on God yet, even though at times it feels like He has given up on me.  Sometimes it's just easier to reject something as a defense mechanism for feeling rejected.  I know, I'm there.

-Acumen

I'm not one to disabuse some one of their beliefs.  I would say that if you feel you have reason to believe in God, you shouldn't give up on him just because he hasn't answered you in the way you want him too.  A persons reasons for believing or not believing are much more complex than can be covered in any single issue discussion.  We probably don't even realize all of them ourselves, and need to explore the topics to do so.  If there is a god, as you believe in, this may be a case similar to the old story about the guy in a flood praying for god to save him as he sends the boats and helicopters past.

Hypothetically speaking, of course. 

 

all

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

I've got to take off for a while.  I won't be back until Monday.  Just so you know I'm not ignoring anyone.

 

all

[Acumen]

See you when you return.

[Some Darn Xian]

All

Glad to have you here. I can certainly say that it is refreshing to have an atheist who isn't a fanatic. I don't know if you ever ran across a guy that used the handle "freethinker." He was the kind of poster that simply gave a person a reason to hate.

Not to pry or to get too much information, but I am curious, in what tradition did you grow up? It sometimes helps me to see some of how a person arrives at their current view points--my feeble attempt to try and walk in someone's shoes.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

Glad to have you here. I can certainly say that it is refreshing to have an atheist who isn't a fanatic. I don't know if you ever ran across a guy that used the handle "freethinker." He was the kind of poster that simply gave a person a reason to hate.

Thanks, and I don't remember ever running across "freethinker".  I feel I should warn you, I am a fanatic.  I'm emotionally invested in the topics of religion, especially how it relates to politics and everyday life. 

I just recognize that you don't get anywhere by beating someone over the head with it. 

Not to pry or to get too much information, but I am curious, in what tradition did you grow up? It sometimes helps me to see some of how a person arrives at their current view points--my feeble attempt to try and walk in someone's shoes.

Roman Catholic.  Rambled around in some of the protestant denominations during my college years, Lutheran, Baptist, non-denom mega churches. 

I'll answer just about anything on those topics.

all

[Acumen]

Somedarn,

It's good to see you here as well.  Stop being a visitor.