Disproving theism

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

This isn't an ethereal version of Let's Make A Deal. I don't care how you want to glibly disrespect the decision, effort, and integrity of every religious person on the planet - all I will say to it is that I believe there will be judgment, and quite a few people are going to be in for a bit of a shock - Including those who thought they were far too smart for God.

Slow down there big guy.  Many religions don't believe in the same god you do.  Personally, I think you're going to be in for one whale of a shock when you discover reality doesn't fit into the mold you made for it.

all

Slow down there big guy. I made it perfectly clear that I *BELIEVE* one particular way.

Oh, you have.  If you can "correct" me on my assumption that Christians think everybody desires eternal life, I can point out that not every religious person on the planet is Christian.  I've come a long way since I first showed up on your doorstep, and have had a lot of experiences that have changed my mind about many things.  I now consider myself a theist, but my path is in no way related to Christianity. 

And nothing will shock me - because I've made no mold. I simply believe.... If I'm wrong - so what? If I'm right, though.... Hmmm....

LOL!  That's an oldie.  I'm sorry Thorolf, but you have made a mold.  You've got a monotheistic belief and people either follow the god you do or they are out in the cold.  Sorry, there is more to reality than that. 

all

[Thorolf]

Compared to God are we not as children? And as for making one's own decisions, does that include the decision to commit suicide?

Compared to my father, I'm still a child. Age and experience comparisons are a pretty silly measure.

And I think I already addressed the suicide question.

Human fathers are limited in their power and ability. They cannot be all places at all times and there is only so much that they can do to prevent their beloved children form harming themselves. An omnipotent, omnispresent heavenly father has no such limitations. Many people say they would anything to keep their children from harm -- but a human father is limited and if he can do nothing to stop his child from killing himself, he bears no guilt. What about a Father who can do anything but still does not act and allows the child He supposedly loves to condemn himself to annihilation?

Who says that "child" is condemned to annihilation? I'm not the judge - and neither are you. Regardless, omnipotence and omnipresence are nice excuses and all, but the Christian believes that God gave us free will and promised to NOT play us like puppets. That includes when we are making our own mistakes - regardless what those mistakes may be. I'm sorry if you don't like the answer, but saying "what about suicide" over and over again does not change it.

Why is that necessarily the case? Is God's justice untempered by mercy? Is He not capable of reading the hearts of men? And in this world, we see through a glass darkly; when standing before Him and seeing Him as He is and finally knowing the truth would any loving father reject his son? Can a mother foresake her child?

He *is* capable of reading the hearts of men... thus judgment. And as I have said repeatedly - I do not pretend to know how He will judge. Perhaps, as with the prodigal son, He will gladly welcome even those whose hearts are changed as they stand before Him.... I am not that wise, smart, or divine to know for sure.

Your belief is incorrect. I am most definitely being genuine. I am not attempting to disprove religion: I am quite happy with my religion and I'm pleased to allow others to practice theirs.

Good news. It still feels like you're questioning things that you know cannot be qualitatively answered for the apparent purpose of rejecting Christianity as you perceive it, though.

What I am arguing against is the absolutist claim that one religion and one alone is true. There are many different religions and all have an equal amount of objective evidence to support them (i.e., none). So the notion that only those who choose a certain faith will get eternal life while everyone else gets oblivion is questionable.

Okay... but why can't one and one alone be true? Because you don't want there to be? Because you don't want to ostracize people who believe differently? It's possible that the only thing that matters is the sincerity of the heart... but WHAT IF, when push comes to shove, there *IS* just one way, one truth, one path?

And, in this thread at least, you've worked exceptionally hard to use our limited, linear human perspective and the evidence of our own pride, ego, and creativity to justify NOT seeking that one true way.

This is irrelevant. We are not talking about people who refuse to step on any trail. We are talking about people who sincerely believe they are on the right trail but find out that they were wrong. It seems unjust for them to be denied eternal life because of a simple mistake.

I don't know that they will be denied anything. Maybe they will... maybe not. I'm more concerned about the comments made that seem to justify not even bothering to seek truth.

Again... what if there *IS* just one way? Don't you think we should at least try to seek it out? Your arguments seem to indicate that you do not feel that way.

[Thorolf]

All,

I don't claim, nor imagine that everyone is Christian. I see no point to your insistence to the contrary.

And you have apparently not read my statements if you think my belief system is as you characterized.

[metis]

Instead of relying on "one way", maybe we should check all ways, at least as much as we can, and go in the direction of that which seems to make the most sense to us?

[Thorolf]

How could we conclude it since we could be predestined not to understand we're predestined?  And how would we know we have free will and that such a thing actually exists.  My point is that no matter whether one believes in free will or predestination, I don't see that there would be any way to give evidence one way or another.  Essentially either way it seems to boil down to an assumption that one may make.   

I suppose it's possible that God lied to us.

[Thorolf]

Instead of relying on "one way", maybe we should check all ways, at least as much as we can, and go in the direction of that which seems to make the most sense to us?

Wouldn't that be seeking the one way?

[metis]

Oh, I think there's other possibilities as well. 

(the above was in reference to post #87)

[metis]

Wouldn't that be seeking the one way?

It could lead to that.  But maybe it's best not to assume there's only one way, and even if there is, we still would have to find that out probably for ourselves.  You know, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[VLinvictus]

the Christian believes that God gave us free will and promised to NOT play us like puppets. That includes when we are making our own mistakes - regardless what those mistakes may be.

Is that attested explicitly in Scripture?

Okay... but why can't one and one alone be true? Because you don't want there to be? Because you don't want to ostracize people who believe differently? It's possible that the only thing that matters is the sincerity of the heart... but WHAT IF, when push comes to shove, there *IS* just one way, one truth, one path?

I do not think anyone should be ostracized or persecuted for differences of belief, so that is a part of it. And it is entirely possible that there is only one "way." However, my point is that there is nothing to indicate which -- among the manifold religions humanity has developed -- is the "one way." It may, in fact, be none of them and we're all screwed or it may in fact be all of them, in that the "one way" is contained at the core of each faith. The point is that no one religion can offer any proof that theirs is the one way, so how is one to tell?

And, in this thread at least, you've worked exceptionally hard to use our limited, linear human perspective and the evidence of our own pride, ego, and creativity to justify NOT seeking that one true way.

This is irrelevant. We are not talking about people who refuse to step on any trail. We are talking about people who sincerely believe they are on the right trail but find out that they were wrong. It seems unjust for them to be denied eternal life because of a simple mistake.

I don't know that they will be denied anything. Maybe they will... maybe not. I'm more concerned about the comments made that seem to justify not even bothering to seek truth.

Again... what if there *IS* just one way? Don't you think we should at least try to seek it out? Your arguments seem to indicate that you do not feel that way.

If that is what you think, then either I have not been clear or you are misreading me.

My concern is that if there is only "one way" and since there is no objective evidence to indicate what that way actually is, then many, many, many people who sincerely try to find the truth and strive to discover "the way" are going to make mistakes and pick the wrong path. For example, I'm a Jew. I believe that my path is the right path for me. I believe that in practicing my religion and its ritual and ethical precepts I am communing with God and taking part in effecting the Divine Will on earth. I don't believe in Jesus. I don't believe in Muhammad. I can identify with many aspects of Buddhism but I do not practice it. I do not beleive in Vishnu or Shiva or Krishna. However, I do not believe that those who follow those paths are necessarily "wrong" -- the tree is known by its fruit: if their faith inspires them to acts of justice and loving-kindness, then that to me is legitimate.

But then again, I could be wrong. I could be in trouble for not accepting Jesus as my personal savior. I could be in trouble for not accepting Muhammad as the seal of the prophets. I could, unlikely though it may be, be condemend to have my thetan continually imprisoned in a meat-body infected with the ghosts of those massacred by Xenu 75,000,000 years ago.

I have sincerely studied and explored and honestly addressed the question of which path is right for me to follow and have made my choice. If I had encountered anything to indicate to me that another path was more correct, I would have chosen it.

So, I have no idea what to expect in an afterlife. I'm not entirely convinced there even is one. But if I am to be consigned to annihilation for not picking the right path, we'll let's just say I'd be just a wee bit pissed off.


[/quote]

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

I don't claim, nor imagine that everyone is Christian. I see no point to your insistence to the contrary.

Ok, I was just pointing out something I noticed.  I must have misread.   

And you have apparently not read my statements if you think my belief system is as you characterized.

Well, I haven't had that much time talking to you.  I am reading your statements, and you have in your faith section that you are oneness Pentecostal, so I think I'm ok in assuming you are Christian.  Hence, when you make the statement "If I'm right, though.... Hmmm....", it does kind of lead my thoughts in a specific direction. 

If you feel like it, you could give me the cliff notes version as to avoid any more confusion on this topic.

all

[Thorolf]

Wouldn't that be seeking the one way?

It could lead to that.  But maybe it's best not to assume there's only one way, and even if there is, we still would have to find that out probably for ourselves.  You know, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I don't think I'm really suggesting that we assume there's only one way - but I would consider it reasonable to not preclude the possibility. As such, I think it's a good idea to seek that one way as we walk our path...

[Thorolf]

the Christian believes that God gave us free will and promised to NOT play us like puppets. That includes when we are making our own mistakes - regardless what those mistakes may be.

Is that attested explicitly in Scripture?

I don't think the word "puppet" is going to appear... but the concept that we are in control of our own lives and decisions is, in my opinion at least, quite explicit.

I do not think anyone should be ostracized or persecuted for differences of belief, so that is a part of it. And it is entirely possible that there is only one "way." However, my point is that there is nothing to indicate which -- among the manifold religious humanity has developed -- is the "one way." It may, in fact, be none of them and we're all screwed or it may in fact be all of them, in that the "one way" is contained at the core of each faith. The point is that no one religion can offer any proof that theirs is the one way, so how is one to tell?

By understanding that logic is not the only tool at our disposal?

If that is what you think, then either I have not been clear or you are misreading me.

My concern is that if there is only "one way" and since there is no objective evidence to indicate what that way actually is, then many, many, many people who sincerely try to find the truth and strive to discover "the way" are going to make mistakes and pick the wrong path. For example, I'm a Jew. I believe that my path is the right path for me. I believe that in practicing my religion and its ritual and ethical precepts I am communing with God and taking part in effecting the Divine Will on earth. I don't believe in Jesus. I don't believe in Muhammad. I can identify with many aspects of Buddhism but I do not practice it. I do not beleive in Vishnu or Shiva or Krishna. However, I do not believe that those who follow those paths are necessarily "wrong" -- the tree is known by its fruit: if their faith inspires them to acts of justice and loving-kindness, then that to me is legitimate.

I agree on all counts (except that I believe in Jesus, and of course I'm not a Jew), and apologize if I have misread you. That said, legitimate and "right" are not necessarily the same thing... and, of course, if there is but one path, then no matter how legitimate their faith may be, it is possible that it will not result in anything after the first death.

But then again, I could be wrong. I could be in trouble for not accepting Jesus as my personal savior. I could be in trouble for not accepting Muhammad as the seal of the prophets. I could, unlikely though it may be, be condemend to have my thetan continually imprisoned in a meat-body infected with the ghosts of those massacred by Xenu 75,000,000 years ago.

I have sincerely studied and explored and honestly addressed the question of which path is right for me to follow and have made my choice. If I had encountered anything to indicate to me that another path was more correct, I would have chosen it.

So, I have no idea what to expect in an afterlife. I'm not entirely convinced there even is one. But if I am to be consigned to annihilation for not picking the right path, we'll let's just say I'd be just a wee bit pissed off.

I can appreciate your search and understand your conclusion.

If it's any consolation, I don't think you'd be pissed off for long. 

[VLinvictus]

If it's any consolation, I don't think you'd be pissed off for long. 

Does that mean you think that our supposedly loving father will annihilate me?

And apart from logic, what other tools do you believe are available to us to determine the truth?

[Thorolf]

If it's any consolation, I don't think you'd be pissed off for long. 

Does that mean you think that our supposedly loving father will annihilate me?

And apart from logic, what other tools do you believe are available to us to determine the truth?

*IF* you're to be consigned to annihilation for not picking the right path.... you won't be pissed off for long.


And there's not much logic involved in listening to and following your heart.

[jacknky]

Thorolf,
"I believe in free will, and so reject the doctrine of predestination. The two are not, in my mind, compatible."

I know Bible verses that say we are predestined. Are there any verses that say we have "free will"?

And how can we have free will about something that isn't understandable, something that appears to be a best guess?

[Thorolf]

Thorolf,
"I believe in free will, and so reject the doctrine of predestination. The two are not, in my mind, compatible."

I know Bible verses that say we are predestined. Are there any verses that say we have "free will"?

And how can we have free will about something that isn't understandable, something that appears to be a best guess?

Why even guess if we DON'T have free will?

There are a lot of verses that indicate that we have control over our own lives.

[VLinvictus]

And there's not much logic involved in listening to and following your heart.

Both are essential for a complete human life, I agree. However:

Logic and reason are something we (presumably) have in common and can share.

Listening to and following our hearts are personal and subjective and cannot be shared: you cannot experience what my heart feels nor can I experience yours.

So, your hearts leads you one way and my heart leads me another. How do we know who is right? Logic and reason, which we share and should theoretically provide us with common ground, cannot resolve the impasse.

So is that it? Our eternal destiny, if we are to have one, is essentially up in air and all we can do is hope that we picked the winning number?

Yeesh.

[Thorolf]

I don't think your conclusion meshes with the rest of this conversation.

It's NOT up in the air... but it also is unlikely to simply be reasoned out. There are more factors at play, and it is up to us - nobody else - to divine what is the best path. Maybe that will turn out to be the "best path for us," and maybe it will turn out to be the "only path for everyone."

I don't know.

I wish I could give you a more definitive answer... but I am still not God.

What I can tell you is that it's not simply throwing darts and hoping we hit the right spot on the board. After all, I believe that God is calling us - our role is to figure out how to listen and have enough faith to keep our feet moving on the path.

I'm sorry if that's not convincing enough for you.

[VLinvictus]

Well and so.

Have we concluded then that the reality of suffering does not disprove theism?

[Thorolf]

Well and so.

Have we concluded then that the reality of suffering does not disprove theism?

I think so...