We're glad to have you.

It's been my experience that atheists generally don't like Christianity because Christianity presupposes the existence of a deity.

As for a response to accusations of exclusivism and ethical down-points - I find that to be utter nonsense. The whole point of Christianity is that it is NOT exclusive - EVERYONE not only can be, but most Christians believe SHOULD be Christians. How is that exclusive?

If you mean that Christians don't accept other belief systems, I'm not entirely sure what is wrong with that. If you think you're right, by nature you try to convince others that you are correct. It's the same in all disciplines. Buddhists think that they are correct. Hindus and Muslims feel the same way. Scientists have their own worldview that they promote with as much fervor and vigor as any religious person. In other words, it's selfish, ignorant, and a bit silly to criticize Christians for being human.

As for ethical down-points - I honestly have no clue what you're talking about, but I'm fairly certain that Christianity has no monopoly on mistakes.

Jack:  BTW, Buddhism is different in that it offers a path to follow not a set of beliefs to blindly believe.

I hope you aren't implying that Christianity is only about blind belief.  There is certainly an component of blindness in all believe, including Buddhist beliefs like freedom from suffering, correctness of morality, and the achievement of enlightenment, nirvana, and reincarnation.  Christianity is not alone in the blindness of belief.


Neither does Christianity.

Adrian:  Not accepting other belief systems into your own religious doctrine is one thing. Not tolerating those religions is another. Most people, especially Atheists, don't like Christianity because they don't appreciate others enforcing their religion upon them.

Right, but the exclusivity of Christianity is founded in the Christian scriptures.  Your complaint seems to be with the various Christian movements that practiced their own strategies of conversion, not necessarily a philosophical differences that causes the tension you referred to earlier.

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Adrian:  I'm talking about discrimination against gays, the belief that women should be submissive to their husbands, "not suffering a witch to live", etc.

And again, you're referring to the practice of certain Christian movements throughout history.  If your research concerns Christian history, then I can see the import.  However, if you're interested in understanding the Christian philosophy on topics like marriage, paganism, and homosexuality, then we'll need more specific questions.

Thorolf,
Again, this non-theist can agree with much of what you say. some quibbles may follow:

"Nobody likes to be told that what they believe in the deepest corners of their heart is wrong."

That is so true and something we all could keep in mind more, especially me.


YOU:
"If you mean that Christians don't accept other belief systems, I'm not entirely sure what is wrong with that. If you think you're right, by nature you try to convince others that you are correct. It's the same in all disciplines. Buddhists think that they are correct...In other words, it's selfish, ignorant, and a bit silly to criticize Christians for being human."

Yes, we are all human and again we need to remember that. I would point out though that Buddhism does not consider Buddhism the "One True Path" but rather "A" path. Other religions especially pantheistic religions teach that there is more than one way. Christianity teaches that it is THE only way. That's why it is considered to have an exclusive element to it.

YOU:
"Not accepting other belief systems into your own religious doctrine is one thing. Not tolerating those religions is another. Most people, especially Atheists, don't like Christianity because they don't appreciate others enforcing their religion upon them. Of course Atheists have done the same, but can you blame them when they have been engaged in the equivalent of a verbal crusade since the release of the Origin of the Species? Especially since public schools banned Creationism. I've been hearing a lot of nasty comments toward Atheists since Stein came out with that documentary."

This non-theist would like to see reason as at least an equal value to faith in our society. When reason is promoted religion seems to feel attacked... And Creationism should not be taught as science in schools. It isn't science.

YOU:
"It is arguable that the actual point of religion is to seek the best way to live your life. For some, that is based on the concept of an afterlife. For others, maybe not. But for each, they seek a "best way" - and then human nature takes over."

So true. So true.

"If we think we know the "best way," we are virtually compelled to share it with others. Atheists are NO different - and in fact are often much worse at refusing to tolerate other beliefs than any religious person I know. If you want to talk about forcing beliefs on people, then I would strongly advise you to not make the very serious mistake of presuming that this is a particularly "religious" phenomenon."

Sometimes Christians construe a questioning attitude with being attacked. But yes, many of us non-theists can be pretty darn obnoxious and that is indeed because we're human too.

YOU:
"You mentioned that atheists do the same, but then proceed to give them a pass - that is foolish. Atheists are no less or more human and have made more than their share of mistakes in "selling" their ideas. Similarly, scientists have made similar mistakes in "selling" their theories, etc... It's humanity, and there is absolutely no lack of black marks on any particular segment of it."

One difference is that non-theists and scientists don't claim to speak for God. When I speak for myself and you speak for God that tends to shut down reasonable discussion.

YOU:
"Aside from the painful moral relativism you are displaying, I think you're also demonstrating a pretty thorough lack of fairness in how you deal with religion, as well as a good bit of ignorance. We can discuss the things you listed, but for now I'm just going to leave it at this - your bias is showing, and it's not pretty."

Morality IS relative. If it weren't Christians would still be burning heathens, dunking witches and owning slaves. If one is a "Moral Relativist" then one is reflecting the real world in that morality changes.
 
 

El,
""Christians" did not burn anyone, but people who claimed that they were Christian and or made a horrible mistake not based on Christian teaching but on their own ignorance and free will."

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch... and men cast them into the fire and they are burned." (John 15:6)

This is the primary verse that was used by the Church to justify burning heretics alive at the time. To say they "claimed to be Christian" is a very fine point since they were the primary Christian game in town. Fortunately we have gone through the Age of Reason so that the Church's teachings have been modified but the Bible is still used to justify human cruelty.

YOU:
"This Christian speaks for himself based on the teachings I accept from our creator.

You saying that you speak for yourself and that someone like myself is speaking for God is disingenuous. I would like to know how you yourself have studied and done all the scientific experiments you claim to "speak for yourself."

I would hope that you stop using any evidence that you have not directly been involved in and personally responsible for all known outcome.

This includes evolution."

I admit that my values and sense of reality is changing and evolving as I travel through life. I also admit I'm a painfully slow learner. Christians do the same thing except they more or less filter reality through the way they are taught to interprete the Bible. I admit I do the same thing. My goal is to reduce those filters of hopes and fears and see the world as clearly as I can. That's why we have meditation practices, to help us learn to see more clearly. I admit that for me this is more a goal than a reality.

Evolution is a scientific theory that best answers a lot of questions about how life got to where it is. It is not a belief like the belief you're going to heaven when you die. Evolution has a lot of evidence to back it up.

Many educated people are theists - in fact, more are theists than not.

Why do you think THAT is?

My point was actually more related to the observation (and fact) that college professors tend to be rather... liberal. Frankly, I think it's pride and arrogance that prompts it, but I'm open to alternative theories. 

Yes, no one group has a monopoly on pride and arrogance - but I was speaking less to that than the phenomena of liberal professors who work to indoctrinate their students to think just like they do.

I don't think it's out of pure concern for others (and, of course, we can discuss the validity of that claim and the implication that conservatives DON'T have pure concern for others - which I think is exactly the opposite of true).

Shouldn't we teach tolerance? Well, no. At least, not in the way you mean...

There are things that absolutely cannot, and should not be tolerated in this world - and you, frankly, don't get to be the one to draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable. People use wonderful words like "tolerance" because of the political and social power they yield. Those words have become buzzwords that can automatically paint a particular, discriminatory picture in the minds of those who hear them. They carry the power to place one on a pedestal, or tear one down, while sounding "intellectual" and "philosophical" and hiding an otherwise painfully clear bias. It's unfortunate that our social and political structure has come to it - but you don't use the word "tolerance" to mean love and acceptance of people by virtue of them being humans. You use it to denigrate a belief system that is different than yours by accusing others of NOT accepting people - when in reality PEOPLE are generally accepted with quite a lot of tolerance. It is the worldviews they hold that are diametrically opposed to the worldviews of others that are generally debated and resisted - and that is okay.

The problem is that you are actually no more tolerant than anyone else. But you get to use the word to denigrate "religion" because you aren't Christian, and that's the rules that some socio-political groups have proclaimed.

I'm sorry, but I don't play by make believe rules developed by pseudointellectual wannabes in the pursuit of political and social power.

So here's the way I see it - it's okay to NOT be tolerant of other worldviews with which you do not agree. It's OKAY to think someone else is wrong, and try to convince them of that notion. It's OKAY to choose to socialize with people who agree with you, and to not socialize with those who do not. It has absolutely nothing to do with some mythical standard of tolerance created by those who lack a great deal of tolerance themselves... it has to do with freedom of association, freedom of religion, and human nature itself.

Where it stops being okay is when we reject individual people and discriminate against them in the socio-political realm solely because they are different. We, as Christians, are taught to love all people. It's not always easy, but that's what we are taught.

Are *YOU* taught that in your class? I suspect not. I suspect that most of your instructors and "atheistic" friends believe that Christians are not to be trusted. That they are the cause of pretty much everything bad that has ever happened. That they are deluded, misguided fools who believe in fairy tales and pixie dust and are clearly not as smart and well-adjusted as you. Maybe it's not that transparent, but I believe that it's there.

Can you honestly tell me I'm wrong about that?

Honestly?


That's awfully shallow... people are flawed and prone to make a LOT of mistakes. What if they are awkward, rude, etc... about it, but ultimately they are RIGHT? And you rejected the truth not because of the religion, but because of one of its flawed practitioners. That would be pretty unfortunate...


I find that many people who claim to be atheists aren't really... not all, but many, when pressed, fail to consistently maintain the absolute nonexistence of a higher power.

Which is also unfortunate, that the perceived actions of some Christians (often the excuses for being anti-Christian are either utter nonsense, misconception, misinformation, or misinterpretation of what Christianity teaches) have poisoned the well so deeply that many people are incredibly bitter without ever even having anything remotely resembling a Christian experience.


What issues would those be? And why are you so eager to give atheists a pass?


Selling out... interesting word choice.

It's not their job, btw.


That's easy to say, but by my perspective you appear to be viewing all Christians through the same set of lenses, ground into shape by the unfortunate mistakes of a few. Out of curiosity, have you had much experience with Islam? Or any other belief system than buddhism and atheism? I know you mentioned hinduism, and find myself wondering how much you have heard or read about the problem in and around India of hindus violently assaulting people who hold differing religious views. Maybe American hindus are just better people than those Indian versions...