Who chooses the Pope? Humans or the Holy Spirit?

[WorldWarrior]

Probably because there aren't many Catholics here.

I think the "official" count is Ell--a self-described convert--and me.

[Daldianus]

Probably because there aren't many Catholics here.

I think the "official" count is Ell--a self-described convert--and me.

Ok. That makes sense. Still a bit empty here then.

[VLinvictus]

I used to be Catholic and almost became a Jesuit, so that ought to count for something

[WorldWarrior]

VL--another Cradle Catholic--yay!!!

[Acumen]

Dald,

Although I appreciate your participation and your innate ability to create threads, you should probably  keep in mind that this forum, although similar to Bnet in some ways, has a different attitude about it.  The posters here, for the most part, are quite thoughtful and articulate with their posts.  If they perceive that your questions are an attempt at trickery as opposed to say on honest attempt to throughly examine certain principles and carry a meaningful dialogue, they wont be as inclined to participate as easily.

[Acumen]

Dald,

Although I appreciate your participation and your innate ability to create threads, you should probably  keep in mind that this forum, although similar to Bnet in some ways, has a different attitude about it.  The posters here, for the most part, are quite thoughtful and articulate with their posts.  If they perceive that your questions are an attempt at trickery as opposed to say on honest attempt to throughly examine certain principles and carry a meaningful dialogue, they wont be as inclined to participate as easily.

So what you mean is that the posters here are more aware of the limitations of their beliefs and the contradictions they entail and therefore prefer not to discuss them directly? That's understandable yet also cowardly in a sense.

That's not what I'm saying.  Posters in this forum are in the habit of spending a fair amount of time to forward a thoughtful response.  If they perceive that someone isn't interested in a thoughtful response, they are less likely to participate.  So asking loaded questions (not saying you are), for instance, will get ignored.

It's just a different sort of atmosphere over here.  We like to learn through the media of our discussions, not just to debate for fun and gamesmanship. 

[Daldianus]

That's not what I'm saying.  Posters in this forum are in the habit of spending a fair amount of time to forward a thoughtful response.  If they perceive that someone isn't interested in a thoughtful response, they are less likely to participate.  So asking loaded questions (not saying you are), for instance, will get ignored.

It's just a different sort of atmosphere over here.  We like to learn through the media of our discussions, not just to debate for fun and gamesmanship. 

I'm all for thoughtful responses! But that doesn't mean that I would simply have to accept them therefore or can't challenge them again.

The question I ask here is of genuine interest to me since it seems, to me, that it incorporates a big paradox. I'd like to know how believers would justify it. Though they of course could always play the 'faith' card in the end and say that God's ways are mysterious.

[redkim]

Well, there really is nothing to justify. I think it is rather clear that not all popes listened to the Holy Spirit, nor do I think, imo, that all were chosen correctly. So, yes,it is both the HS and the cardinals that work in choosing the Pope. And let's not forget that the man chosen has to say yes. We have no way of knowing how many have been chosen and did not say yes.

[Daldianus]

Well, there really is nothing to justify. I think it is rather clear that not all popes listened to the Holy Spirit, nor do I think, imo, that all were chosen correctly. So, yes,it is both the HS and the cardinals that work in choosing the Pope. And let's not forget that the man chosen has to say yes. We have no way of knowing how many have been chosen and did not say yes.

So you CAN address questions quite directly? Good

Does this then mean that the HS is dependent on the whim of the cardinals?

Would the HS or God ever intervene if the cardinals would do too much damage to the Papacy (although one can then wonder why they didn't when the Renaissance Popes were wreaking havoc in the Vatican) or would they risk the failure of their Church?

[redkim]

Well, there really is nothing to justify. I think it is rather clear that not all popes listened to the Holy Spirit, nor do I think, imo, that all were chosen correctly. So, yes,it is both the HS and the cardinals that work in choosing the Pope. And let's not forget that the man chosen has to say yes. We have no way of knowing how many have been chosen and did not say yes.

So you CAN address questions quite directly? Good

Does this then mean that the HS is dependent on the whim of the cardinals?

Would the HS or God ever intervene if the cardinals would do too much damage to the Papacy (although one can then wonder why they didn't when the Renaissance Popes were wreaking havoc in the Vatican) or would they risk the failure of their Church?

Thank you. It's about time you saw a direct answer when it was given. And the other answers are all about free will, which has already been addressed with you.

[Daldianus]

Well, there really is nothing to justify. I think it is rather clear that not all popes listened to the Holy Spirit, nor do I think, imo, that all were chosen correctly. So, yes,it is both the HS and the cardinals that work in choosing the Pope. And let's not forget that the man chosen has to say yes. We have no way of knowing how many have been chosen and did not say yes.

So you CAN address questions quite directly? Good

Does this then mean that the HS is dependent on the whim of the cardinals?

Would the HS or God ever intervene if the cardinals would do too much damage to the Papacy (although one can then wonder why they didn't when the Renaissance Popes were wreaking havoc in the Vatican) or would they risk the failure of their Church?

Thank you. It's about time you saw a direct answer when it was given. And the other answers are all about free will, which has already been addressed with you.

1. So the HS/God are dependent on the cardinals' willingness to choose its candidate?

2. What freewill? You claimed that your God wouldn't let his plan fail. This means that, if need be, he would manipulate people (or in this case) the cardinals to prevent this.

[Acumen]

What's up with that?

[redkim]

Well, there really is nothing to justify. I think it is rather clear that not all popes listened to the Holy Spirit, nor do I think, imo, that all were chosen correctly. So, yes,it is both the HS and the cardinals that work in choosing the Pope. And let's not forget that the man chosen has to say yes. We have no way of knowing how many have been chosen and did not say yes.

So you CAN address questions quite directly? Good

Does this then mean that the HS is dependent on the whim of the cardinals?

Would the HS or God ever intervene if the cardinals would do too much damage to the Papacy (although one can then wonder why they didn't when the Renaissance Popes were wreaking havoc in the Vatican) or would they risk the failure of their Church?

Thank you. It's about time you saw a direct answer when it was given. And the other answers are all about free will, which has already been addressed with you.

1. So the HS/God are dependent on the cardinals' willingness to choose its candidate?

2. What freewill? You claimed that your God wouldn't let his plan fail. This means that, if need be, he would manipulate people (or in this case) the cardinals to prevent this.

I'd already stated that God won. Now, if you are only interested in continuing this line of questioning without actually understanding the answers already given, then I have no more to do with the subject.

[Daldianus]

Your avatar couldn't be more appropriate.

Sorry, go ahead and continue your convincing argument.

You're free to evade the problematic questions.

[Daldianus]

I'd already stated that God won. Now, if you are only interested in continuing this line of questioning without actually understanding the answers already given, then I have no more to do with the subject.

Why did God won? Was he lucky or did he tweak the game in his favor?

[redkim]

God won because He died for us, therefore, conquering sin and death.

[Daldianus]

God won because He died for us, therefore, conquering sin and death.

Uh, yeah, I'm impressed. Especially since he could have conquered it with a snap of his fingers.

That doesn't answer my question though. You're evading again as usual.

[Acumen]

Dald,

How do you know that?  Omnipotence isn't doing what ever you want, but doing whatever is possible.  Perhaps the substitutionary atonement plan was the best option. 

[Daldianus]

Dald,

How do you know that?  Omnipotence isn't doing what ever you want, but doing whatever is possible.  Perhaps the substitutionary atonement plan was the best option. 

What would limit your God then?

[Acumen]

Dald,

How do you know that?  Omnipotence isn't doing what ever you want, but doing whatever is possible.  Perhaps the substitutionary atonement plan was the best option. 

What would limit your God then?

Nothing deficient or outside the realm of logical possibility limits Him.