Who chooses the Pope? Humans or the Holy Spirit?

[fidei in nuce]

Daldianus, the Holy Spirit chooses the Pope!  I thought that was stated somewhere in this thread.

[Acumen]

Fide,

Good to see you man.   

I like seeing some of the earlier posters.   

[Daldianus]

Dald,

How do you know that?  Omnipotence isn't doing what ever you want, but doing whatever is possible.  Perhaps the substitutionary atonement plan was the best option. 

What would limit your God then?

Nothing deficient or outside the realm of logical possibility limits Him.

So even God is bound by logic?

And why would 'atonement through sacrifice' be the best, or only, option within the realm of logical possibility? 

[Daldianus]

Daldianus, the Holy Spirit chooses the Pope!  I thought that was stated somewhere in this thread.

This raises a couple of questions:

1. So the HS chose the Renaissance Popes as well? The Borgia, etc? Why would he do that? Or does he have a weird sense of humor?

2. If it's the HS who chooses the Popes then are the cardinals just vessels to execute that choice? Does the HS remote-control them during the voting process? Or could the cardinals refuse the HS' choice?

[fidei in nuce]

Your first question is really one about impeccability [character] and free-will [imago dei].  No one is privy to the charism of impeccability and the Catholic Church never claimed that for the Vicar of Christ.  You seem to think that because the Holy Spirit chooses someone, if that person fails or falls, then it is an indictment of the Holy Spirit [which is impossible], so the conclusion must be that the Holy Spirit did not choose the Pope.  The answer to the second question will put that logical fallacy to rest.

And I’ll answer the second question with a question.  Did the Apostles or the Holy Spirit choose Mathias?  Did the HS remote control them during the voting process?  That answer to this is the same as how the Holy Spirit chooses the Pope.  He works through others and everyone by dignity of their nature retains free will.

The answer to the second part of the second question is ‘yes’.  The guidance of the Holy Spirit is one or proposal, not imposition.

Please feel free to ask the underlying question you have, I will answer it directly!

[Daldianus]

Your first question is really one about impeccability [character] and free-will [imago dei].  No one is privy to the charism of impeccability and the Catholic Church never claimed that for the Vicar of Christ.  You seem to think that because the Holy Spirit chooses someone, if that person fails or falls, then it is an indictment of the Holy Spirit [which is impossible], so the conclusion must be that the Holy Spirit did not choose the Pope.

So it was the HS spirit indeed who chose the Borgia? Why would he have done that?

And I’ll answer the second question with a question.  Did the Apostles or the Holy Spirit choose Mathias?  Did the HS remote control them during the voting process?  That answer to this is the same as how the Holy Spirit chooses the Pope.  He works through others and everyone by dignity of their nature retains free will.

So the HS is dependent on the other people's willingness to do what he wants? What if people refuse what the HS wishes to do and what would have to be done in order to advance God's plan?

The answer to the second part of the second question is ‘yes’.  The guidance of the Holy Spirit is one or proposal, not imposition.

So humans could make God's plan fail through their choices and rejections?

[fidei in nuce]

To your questions…in order!
Yes. 
I have no idea.
Yes.
That’s been the history of mankind.
Yes.

I have a question!  Are you able to tell me what you believe about religion and why in a couple paragraphs?

[Daldianus]

To your questions…in order!
Yes. 
I have no idea.
Yes.
That’s been the history of mankind.
Yes.

I have a question!  Are you able to tell me what you believe about religion and why in a couple paragraphs?

Thanks for answering.

What I think about religion in general or your religion? Or do you want to know what I believe?

[Acumen]

Dald,

I think his question was rhetorical.  He can correct me if I'm wrong, but many of your questions presume that there are easy answers that can be recapped in short responses. 

Fidei is a very thoughtful poster who takes time to craft reasoned and meaningful responses.  Naturally then, firing question after question is a little unfair because he would be doing most of the work while you sit in the pilot's seat.

[Daldianus]

Dald,

I think his question was rhetorical.  He can correct me if I'm wrong, but many of your questions presume that there are easy answers that can be recapped in short responses. 

Fidei is a very thoughtful poster who takes time to craft reasoned and meaningful responses.  Naturally then, firing question after question is a little unfair because he would be doing most of the work while you sit in the pilot's seat.

Why unfair? It's him, or his belief system, who claims to know what The Truth(tm) is. So it's only fair to question it. Of course he, or any other believer, could ofcourse at any time admit that they can't answer all the questions ...

[fidei in nuce]

I have a different question.  What is you interest in ‘who chooses the Pope’?  I happened to glance over to your icon and noticed that you are an Agnostic with pan(en)theistic leanings.  Then I wondered why ask a fourth or fifth tier question dealing with and ‘inside’ issue.  It would be like me asking a ghost hunter if he has a preference for blue orbs or poltergeists and what’s the best technique for disclosing their presence.  Either I am genuinely curious or I am simply being provocative.  Or I may be hoping to illustrate the absurdness of their ‘belief’. In relation to the ghost hunter, I would be an agnostic, since I don’t personally believe ghosts are hanging around, but don’t really know [can’t know maybe] and I think the whole thing is absurd.

So by your self-description, you either don’t know if a god exists or think everything is god.  Neither of those allow for a personal Deity being intimately involved with man; hence choosing a Pope—who turns out to be good or bad!  I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on not being provocative, so maybe there is a hint of curiosity hoping to remove some doubt on your part…only you can know!   I tend to think you are attempting to show the illogical position of the Holy Spirit choosing a Pope, hoping to disprove something greater.  So far, you’ve presented nothing clever. 

Either way, please continue.  Be precise and like Acumen stated, don’t just ask questions that require me to do all of the work in this exchange.  Offer a thoughtful, pointed question.  I will answer any point, as clearly as possible.  I am hardly concerned with having my belief system questioned. 

Sorry it took a while to respond…weeknights have been busy lately!

[Daldianus]

Thank you very much for your answer, fidei.

I'm actually asking the question because I'm intrigued by paradoxes and the like. And the catholic concept of choosing a pope fits into that category. Since it's either the HS who chooses the pope or it's the cardinals. Of course their choices might coincide at times. But then I'm wondering if in this case the HS is remote-controlling the cardinals or if the HS was simply lucky and the cardinals chose the same pope that the HS wanted to be elected.

So if it's ALWAYS the HS who decides who has to be elected and who gets his will done then the cardinals are simply executing automatons. If it's ALWAYS simply the cardinals who decide on their OWN then the HS (and thus God) is dependent on their choice. Which would be a surprising observation in my opinion. Would the HS, or God, risk the failure of his plans due to cardinals who don't follow its wishes? or did the HS actually really want people like the Borgia as his proxy?

[fidei in nuce]

There may be a contradiction in comparing the two statements you have made, but neither expresses the relationship between the Holy Sprit and the Pope [or any individual for that matter]…this really is a free-will issue.

Here are the two possibilities you provided.
1.   If the Holy Sprit chooses the Pope, then the cardinals are simply executing automatons.
2.   The cardinals decide on their own then the Holy Spirit is dependent on their choice.

The third one is the Catholic position [though not exclusively].  The Holy Spirit, by grace, inwardly directs and leads through prudential formation of the intellect without ever diminishing the free will of man, by which we derive our dignity of being made in the Creator’s image.  Analogies never suffice, but through guidance, principles and the reinforcement of virtuous behavior, building on the interior natural inclinations of the individual, parents give all of the qualities and guidance necessary for a teenager to drive prudently.  When the teenager is not monitored, they may exercise their free will and speed, or do some distracting behavior while driving, and then the will of the parents is not followed, but was nonetheless present and influencing.  Compound this with the omniscience of God [who guides perfectly] and the individual is entirely culpable for their own actions while under their parent’s guidance.  Now you may say, that the parents [God] did not choose their imprudent behavior so the child must have made the choice on their own.  The answer is ‘yes’, but notice how different this is from ‘simply executing automatons’.

So the answer to ‘did the HS actually really want people like the Borgia as his proxy?’ is [first of all Vicar and proxy are not synonyms] I still have no idea.  If their behavior is reprehensible, the Holy Spirit certainly does not desire objective evil.  I personally have done evil, yet I hope some find good in my life and are lifted up because of it.  What would the world have been like with out the Borgia Popes is an interesting question, but please know that there were worse Popes.  It’s best stated that the Holy Spirit works in the world in spite of us.

“Would the HS, or God, risk the failure of his plans due to cardinals who don't follow its wishes?”  Yes.  God does it with every one of us!

[Daldianus]

The Holy Spirit, by grace, inwardly directs and leads through prudential formation of the intellect without ever diminishing the free will of man, by which we derive our dignity of being made in the Creator’s image.  Analogies never suffice, but through guidance, principles and the reinforcement of virtuous behavior, building on the interior natural inclinations of the individual, parents give all of the qualities and guidance necessary for a teenager to drive prudently.  When the teenager is not monitored, they may exercise their free will and speed, or do some distracting behavior while driving, and then the will of the parents is not followed, but was nonetheless present and influencing.  Compound this with the omniscience of God [who guides perfectly] and the individual is entirely culpable for their own actions while under their parent’s guidance.  Now you may say, that the parents [God] did not choose their imprudent behavior so the child must have made the choice on their own.  The answer is ‘yes’, but notice how different this is from ‘simply executing automatons’.

So what you're actually saying is that the HS whispers things to the cardinals and then is totally dependent upon their willingness to comply?

So the answer to ‘did the HS actually really want people like the Borgia as his proxy?’ is [first of all Vicar and proxy are not synonyms] I still have no idea.  If their behavior is reprehensible, the Holy Spirit certainly does not desire objective evil.  I personally have done evil, yet I hope some find good in my life and are lifted up because of it.  What would the world have been like with out the Borgia Popes is an interesting question, but please know that there were worse Popes.  It’s best stated that the Holy Spirit works in the world in spite of us.

But what does that actually mean? If it doesn't remote-control the people then the HS is simply lucky when people do what it is asking them to do.

“Would the HS, or God, risk the failure of his plans due to cardinals who don't follow its wishes?”  Yes.  God does it with every one of us!

He would risk that his overall plan fails due to cardinals (or other humans) who don't act according to his will??

[fidei in nuce]

[Daldianus]
So what you're actually saying is that the HS whispers things to the cardinals and then is totally dependent upon their willingness to comply?
[Fidei]
I have a bad analogy to use as a comparison, but I think it illustrates the point clearly.  A life long over-emphasis with temporal affairs, laziness and a dull mind results in the blocking or diminishing of our understanding of natural law, according to Aquinas; even a non-Christian, as described above, will become deaf [to follow your analogy] when confronted with discernment.  Let’s say a person has smoked 2 packs a day for 30 years and develops lung cancer.  What is the cause of the cancer—the cigarettes?  The disposition of the person’s discipline [free will] has in spite of the prompting of the bodily signs and external warnings [Holy Spirit] yielded a pathology [decision] that is a result of the disposition [free will], not the various promptings and external signs [Holy Spirit].  To think otherwise, that’s like stating that the cigarette puts the cancer in the lungs [or whispering in the ear in our case].  That analogy really gives a bad image!!!

Anyway, the point is that the Cardinals are disposed by their vocation, to be attuned to the voice of the Holy Spirit and signs of discernment when choosing the Pope.  This comes from a life full of prayer and study, all through Grace.  They do not hold a Holy Spirit magic 8 ball that gives them the answer once they all sit down.  So the working of the Holy Spirit does not lend itself to the image of ‘having a whisper in the ear’.  It’s much more intimate.   Yet, the Holy Spirit remains ‘totally dependent upon their willingness to comply’.

[Daldianus]
But what does that actually mean? If it doesn't remote-control the people then the HS is simply lucky when people do what it is asking them to do.

[Fidei]
Not lucky, but then the choice becomes a fuller expression of God’s plan for man.  This question develops into the next question you asked and is worded clearer.

[Daldianus]
He would risk that his overall plan fails due to cardinals (or other humans) who don't act according to his will??

[Fidei]
Again…yes!  Think of Adam/Eve, Cain, Abraham, Moses, David, the Apostles…then the Popes.  Without exception, God relied on their full participation and cooperation.  Without exception, everyone has failed, sometimes in a grand way.  Did God risk His overall plan on humans who don’t act according to His will?  Yes, every time!  Has anyone of those failures led to the end of salvation history or a cessation of Truth, or in our case, the longest running institution in world history [when George Washington was elected President, the Catholic Church was on their 250th Pope]?  No, every time!  That should be at least something that you can know without a doubt!