Christianity- the Good Life

[Faithfulee]

Good thing you were not president.  Proves my point that a President should not be a religious office but a political one.

Some think Jimmy Carter could not retaliate with nukes under that scenario but, because he never stated as such, it would leave any potential enemy not knowing what might happen if they did attack.

Your response reminds me of an incident when I was teaching adults converting into the church, whereas one potential convert was working at a used car lot, and he was encouraged to especially push cars known to be defective.  When he refused to do so, his boss, who often made it quite clear that he was a "born again" Christian, told him that he had to separate his religious beliefs from his job.  The potential convert, who was very much bothered by that response, finally quite because of his conscience. 

So, what I see you posting above reminds me of that boss who seemingly doesn't much have a desire to apply his religious beliefs to his work.  IOW, as long as I can make money, to hell with morality.  Do you actually believe that?       

I take my Christian values to work play and in my life.  Every day there are conflicts with my Christian beliefs and my life (my wife is a flaming liberal).  But I make my decisions on a wide range of things.  I would have quit the unscrupluous auto dealer, but I bet it was not that simple a decision.  I pray for him and anyone in that situation, only God knows if it was the right decision.

Lilly - thank you for that thoughtful post. 

I thank God that we have persons of faith in our government today, who have learned the lessons of our history and the Christian faith and with Gods help have made this the freest, most prosperious country in the history of mankind.  No wonder so many are jealous.

Having said that, I woulnt want to see a Muslim president of the US, would you??

[Lilly]

That's probably because you're a Christian and in the majority.  but good Christian presidents and legislators were perfectly able to justify slavery, segregation and the genocide and stealing of native American lands. Plus it is very possible for politicians to be publicly pious and and personally have twisted values. I say look at what a politician does not what he/she says including their religious espousal.

Yes, a president and legislators who have Christian views would be more likely to represent my views more accurately than an atheist, Muslim or Buddhist, and since we live in a representative democracy that's what it's all about.  I'm very aware that many use the title Christian to present themselves as publicly pious while inwardly they are anything but.  That's because they know the citizens of this country are looking for someone with high moral values and Christianity represents that.  And I've seen the politician who's been caught red handed in wrongdoing walk out of church the next Sunday holding a Bible in one hand and his wife's hand in the other.  Some may fool me, some don't.

I'd love to hear a "good Christian president" justify slavery.  Do you have one in mind and any of his quotes?  I have looked into how slavery began and evolved in this country, and how it was ended.  I'd like to hear your understanding. 

And please tell me what genocide (the systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group) you're talking about.

FaithfulLee,

Thanks for your nice words.  No, a Muslim president would not represent my views very well, so I probably wouldn't support him as a candidate. 

[Acumen]

To me, it really makes no difference if a Christian is in the White House as long as they are equally tolerant of all religions.

[Faithfulee]

Lilly

I know that I am going to enjoy our discussions

[SquirleyWurley]

I also take my values to work and to play and politics.  At some point I draw the line and say, well certain things reflect my personal idiosyncrasies, my choice or temperament, my personal standards which I just can't expect others to share.  But just because my views are idiosyncratic, or minority views, just because I'm different, doesn't mean I can't vote according to my own personal inclination, it's not like I divorce myself from politics or public life, it's that I know that certain things are particular to me, through some self-knowledge and humility, and I also have certain principles on where to draw the line.

I think the issue is more about where do you draw the line.  For example, I think it's good to promote understanding about health information and issue, and I know that some kinds of restriction of health information and issues amounts to serious neglect, but there are still questions about just how to promote these things, and just what is most crucial, and where the line gets crossed into such neglect that it's important to take issue/take action.

[metis]

I'd love to hear a "good Christian president" justify slavery.  Do you have one in mind and any of his quotes?  I have looked into how slavery began and evolved in this country, and how it was ended.  I'd like to hear your understanding.

Every single President prior to Lincoln justified slavery, and they were almost all Christian (Jefferson was a Deist).

 

And please tell me what genocide (the systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group) you're talking about.

Are you not aware of the program against Amerindians and the simple fact that genocide was very much allowed to take place?  Let me suggest reading up on Andrew Jackson's decisions dealing with such, which included the Trail of Tears forced march of the Cherokee that killed so many.   

[peacebringer]

Wow, this thread has gone off and few different directions and ultimatley about I think how Christianity impacts life.  It is all a matter of whether I am working from my self will and kingdom, say as the "christian" used car dealer mentioned, or living life in surrender to Jesus and advancing the kingdom of God.  This permeates all life. But following God doesn't assure having a good life. 

A good life is often define by "self" kingdom terms.  Lack of suffering, good job,good health,  plenty of toys and so on.  Bible never promises any of that, true life is in the Kingdom of God. A true Good life is being able to be content regarless of situation, be it in much, be it in want, be it in persecution.

[Faithfulee]

Wow, this thread has gone off and few different directions and ultimatley about I think how Christianity impacts life.  It is all a matter of whether I am working from my self will and kingdom, say as the "christian" used car dealer mentioned, or living life in surrender to Jesus and advancing the kingdom of God.  This permeates all life. But following God doesn't assure having a good life. 

A good life is often define by "self" kingdom terms.  Lack of suffering, good job,good health,  plenty of toys and so on.  Bible never promises any of that, true life is in the Kingdom of God. A true Good life is being able to be content regarless of situation, be it in much, be it in want, be it in persecution.

Welcome to the discussion.  I would agree with all you say but

"God doesn't assure having a good life"

I am enjoying a good life but I think I would enjoy a good life no matter what if I have faith is God.  We had dinner last week with a freind in a wheelchair who lost both legs years ago and spent a week in the hospital with other maladies requiring a great deal of extra care.  We had a great time, thank God, and thank you God for helping John enjoy the "good life" that he does.

[jacknky]

The point is that one doesn't have to believe in any particular supernatural Deity to learn to appreciate life. These are skills we can learn and are learned by people in all parts of the world belonging to all religions or none. Ya'll simply choose to ascribe the learning of these skills to one particular deity but that's not required.

[Lilly]

Every single President prior to Lincoln justified slavery, and they were almost all Christian (Jefferson was a Deist).

If every American President prior to Lincoln justified slavery, then give me a quote and his reasoning for it.  The facts are that slavery in this country began when a Dutch slave ship landed on American shores in distress in the early 1600s.  The colonists decided to treat the African slaves as indentured servants, same as whites.  They would work 4-7 years to pay for their passage and then be freed.  Anthony Johnson is a fascinating figure in American history.  He was a freed African who owned land and was a successful farmer in the 1600s. The problem was that most freed indentured servants, both black and white, were not so enterprising and began to cause problems with land owners and Native Americans as they roamed the country side.  By the 1700s policy changed for the worst and state legislatures began to institute a brutal form of slavery against Africans.  By the time America won its independence, wrote its Constitution declaring all men equal, and swore in her first president in 1789, slavery was already well established in this country. 

Thomas Jefferson, who was a Unitarian same as John Adams, meaning a non-trinitarian Protestant Christian, wanted to find a way to free all slaves and send the Africans back to Africa.  The costs were prohibitive.  But less than 80 years later in 1862, President Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation freeing all slaves.

Our history is far from perfect, and it is far from being the worst as far as nations go.  To simply say all American Presidents prior to Lincoln justified slavery is simplistic to say the least.

It's strange that when we talk of slavery and Native Americans our founding fathers were all Christians.  But when we talk about all the good things America has stood for including freedom and equality for all, the founders weren't Christian.
 

Are you not aware of the program against Amerindians and the simple fact that genocide was very much allowed to take place?  Let me suggest reading up on Andrew Jackson's decisions dealing with such, which included the Trail of Tears forced march of the Cherokee that killed so many. 

Cherokees were not being killed because of their ethnicity, religion, etc.  My understanding is they were being relocated and 4,000 died along the way.  The reason for the relocation had to do with land and gold.

"The Cherokee Nation was allocated land in Georgia as a result of the 1791 treaty with the U.S. Government. In 1828, not only did whites for settlement purposes desire their land, but gold was discovered. Georgia tried to reclaim this land in 1830, but the Cherokee protested and took the case to the U.S. Supreme Court. The Court decided in favor of the Cherokee, however, the President and Congress forced the Native Americans to give up their land. 1838 called in federal troops in to “escort” approximately 15,000 Cherokee people to their new home in Indian Territory. On the way, approx. 1/3 of the Cherokee people died. This event, known to the Cherokee as “The Trail Where They Cried”, is better known as the Trail of Tears in U.S. History textbooks."

As I said our history is not perfect.  It's sad that such things were done.  But to try to compare this incident with the genocide that took place by atheist Communists, Nazis, and even the Japanese who's predominate religions in the 1940s were Shinto and Buddhism is a little over the top.

The top nine killers: (1) Joseph Stalin, 43 million dead, 1929-'53; (2) Mao Tse-tung, 38 million, 1923-'76; (3) Adolf Hitler, 21 million, 1933-'45; (4) Chiang Kai-shek, 10 million, 1921-'48; (5) Vladimir Lenin, 4 million, 1917-'24; (6) Tojo Hideki (Japan), 4 million, 1941-'45; (7) Pol Pot, 2.4 million, 1968-'87; ( Yahya Khan (Pakistan), 1.5 million, 1971; (9) Josip Broz, better known as Marshal Tito (Yugoslavia), 1.2 million, 1941-'80.

[jacknky]

Lilly,
 I think it is a unique reading of history to proclaim American slaves as not slaves but "indentured servants". Are you aware of the Dred Scott decision by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1856?

"To simply say all American Presidents prior to Lincoln justified slavery is simplistic to say the least."

Would you agree that no president attempted to eliminate slavery before Lincoln and even that attempt began as an effort to hold the Union together?

"It's strange that when we talk of slavery and Native Americans our founding fathers were all Christians.  But when we talk about all the good things America has stood for including freedom and equality for all, the founders weren't Christian."

Point taken. Perhaps the discussions are different in that the issue about many of the Founding Fathers not being Christian is usually given in response to those proclaiming that the US is a "Christian" nation. Most of US citizens are and have been Christian but our Constitution rests on secular foundations.

Quote
"Are you not aware of the program against Amerindians and the simple fact that genocide was very much allowed to take place?  Let me suggest reading up on Andrew Jackson's decisions dealing with such, which included the Trail of Tears forced march of the Cherokee that killed so many.
Cherokees were not being killed because of their ethnicity, religion, etc.  My understanding is they were being relocated and 4,000 died along the way.  The reason for the relocation had to do with land and gold."

And you have no problem with a people being forcibly "relocated"?

"As I said our history is not perfect.  It's sad that such things were done.  But to try to compare this incident with the genocide that took place by atheist Communists, Nazis, and even the Japanese who's predominate religions in the 1940s were Shinto and Buddhism is a little over the top."

The Nazis were technically Christian. The party came to power through coalitions with Christian churches both Protestant and Catholic. Hitler, born a Roman Catholic, was never excommunicated and he forged political Concordats with the church. As late as 1941 he told one of generals "I am now as before a Catholic, and will always remain so."

But of course Hitler perverted Christian principle's just as Stalin and Pol Pot perverted non-theistic, rational and humanistic principles. The real enemy is unyielding dogma whether in the name of religion or the state.

[peacebringer]

The point is that one doesn't have to believe in any particular supernatural Deity to learn to appreciate life. These are skills we can learn and are learned by people in all parts of the world belonging to all religions or none. Ya'll simply choose to ascribe the learning of these skills to one particular deity but that's not required.

No, it is not just a simple matter of skills. Sure a person can be content regardless of diety. Contentment in life is not just a function of having appropriately aligned faith. We all have faith in something. A Christian though has a level of peace that any "skill" cannot match.  There is a content from the eternal, it is a moving beyond self. It is a peace of no longer being at odds with God.  Sure there are practices that can give you a sense of peace, those practice generally come down to accepting what is, where as true Biblical peace is not just acceptance of what is but is ultimately an awareness beyond just acceptance.

[Lilly]

Lilly,
 I think it is a unique reading of history to proclaim American slaves as not slaves but "indentured servants". Are you aware of the Dred Scott decision by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1856?

Jack,

I am aware of the Dred Scott decision.  I said in my post: "By the 1700s policy changed for the worst and state legislatures began to institute a brutal form of slavery against Africans."  But the decision in 1856 doesn't change the reality that existed in the 1600s when Africans were treated as indentured servants. 

Would you agree that no president attempted to eliminate slavery before Lincoln

No.  Remember the problem that led to the brutal form of slavery that evolved in the US was that the release of indentured servants was causing problems with landowners and Native Americans.  Thomas Jefferson came up with the plan to send Africans back to Africa.  He was a US President before Lincoln.  But he couldn't carry out his plan because it was too expensive.  Now slaves being freed was a problem and there was no way to send them back.  What do you do?

and even that attempt began as an effort to hold the Union together?

Incorrect.  What was dividing the Union?  Slavery.  At that time Congress was evenly divided between free and slave states.  Lincoln proposed that all new states, such as Ohio, entering the Union must enter as free states.  That would tip the balance of power in the Congress towards freeing the slaves.  The majority voted Lincoln into office, the South rebelled and succeeded from the Union.  The Civil War began and when the North won, all slaves were freed.

And you have no problem with a people being forcibly "relocated"?

I have a big problem with it.  But I would not call it genocide.

The Nazis were technically Christian.

No, the Nazis were not technically Christian.  They were a mix of atheist, Pagan and Christian.

The party came to power through coalitions with Christian churches both Protestant and Catholic. Hitler, born a Roman Catholic, was never excommunicated and he forged political Concordats with the church. As late as 1941 he told one of generals "I am now as before a Catholic, and will always remain so."

The Nazi party never won much more than 30% of the vote in Germany.  Hitler was appointed to office to appease him, and then he ceased power. As far as being a Catholic, do you think he may have lied from time to time?   His beliefs in a superior race seem to come more from Darwinism than Christianity.

But of course Hitler perverted Christian principle's just as Stalin and Pol Pot perverted non-theistic, rational and humanistic principles. The real enemy is unyielding dogma whether in the name of religion or the state.

Agreed, however dogma is simply belief in a set of principles.  If Christian principles were perverted then its dogma was changed.  Dogma may or may not be bad.  It depends on the dogma.  I believe true Christian dogma taught by Jesus himself is very good.  The problem is when Christians or anyone else depart from Christ's teachings.

[jacknky]

lilly,
Thank you for your post. a couple of points:

"Incorrect.  What was dividing the Union?  Slavery."

Yes, slavery divided the Union. Lincoln at the beginning of the war in an effort to hold the Union togther, did not say that the war was about slavery though in order to retain the slave holding states. it wasn't until 1863 that he signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

Quote
The Nazis were technically Christian.
No, the Nazis were not technically Christian.  They were a mix of atheist, Pagan and Christian.

Well, I realize no Christian Church would claim the Nazis now but the German churches were in collusion with the Nazis at that time. I'm sure it was a matter of survival for them.

"Agreed, however dogma is simply belief in a set of principles."

I tend to distruct dogma. It's too easily an excuse for giving up our reason.

[Faithfulee]

The point is that one doesn't have to believe in any particular supernatural Deity to learn to appreciate life. These are skills we can learn and are learned by people in all parts of the world belonging to all religions or none. Ya'll simply choose to ascribe the learning of these skills to one particular deity but that's not required.

I live a good life and give God Credit for it. My religious faith is a great help.  Every week (at least) it reminds me of the source of this good life I live.  I thank God every day.

Do you live a good life?  And if so, why?

[metis]

Lilly:

First of all, my comment on "all the Presidents before Lincoln" was incorrect, and I should have said "many Presidents before Lincoln".  And here's a quote and a source:

"Of the first five presidents, four owned slaves.  All four of these owned slaves while they were president.

Of the next five presidents (#6-10), four owned slaves.  Only two of them owned slaves while they were president.

Of the next five presidents (#11-15), two owned slaves. Both of these two owned slaves while they were president.

Of the next three presidents (#16-18) two owned slaves. neither of them owned slaves while serving as president. 

The last president to own slaves while president was #13, Zachary Taylor (1849-1850).

The last president to own slaves at all was #18, Ulysses S. Grant (1869-1877).

So twelve of our presidents owned slaves and eight of them owned slaves while serving as president.-- http://www.nas.com/~lopresti/ps.htm. 

This website includes the names of Presidents who did have slaves as well.  Also, please note that these were Presidents who owned slaves, and I'll bet there were those who justified slavery who never owned them.  Also, what kind of reactions against slavery were found in the South since most of those who were anti-slavery were living in the North? 

Cherokees were not being killed because of their ethnicity, religion, etc.  My understanding is they were being relocated and 4,000 died along the way.  The reason for the relocation had to do with land and gold.

Actually, it was a bit of "all of the above".  There was very little respect for the Indian way of life and there are many examples of attempts to kill large numbers of them.  Let me recommend the well-documented book "American Holocaust: The Conquest of the New World" by David E. Stannard or even "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen, which is also quite well documented. 

[metis]

Well, I realize no Christian Church would claim the Nazis now but the German churches were in collusion with the Nazis at that time. I'm sure it was a matter of survival for them.

Yes, but it was even more than just survival.  There were a great many church leaders who fully and voluntarily cooperated with the NAZI's.  When I studied the Holocaust in Poland, we met with Catholic leaders who have fully admitted and apologized for their actions and inactions (more the latter) during the Holocaust years.  But the strongest religious group that supported Hitler was found in the Lutheran north of Germany, and when Hitler set forth the Nuremberg Laws that harshly restricted Jews, he did so because that is where Luther had set forth his Nuremberg Laws, which Hitler partially duplicated.

However, do not read the above as an idictment against all church people or all Christians by any means.  There were also many who attempted to help and hide Jews, Gypsies, political opponents, etc., and we cannot forget their brave efforts.  On top of that, there were some church leaders who also were willing to stand up to the NAZI's one way or another even though they risked their own life in doing so, and some of them were killed because of that.

[metis]

Thomas Jefferson, who was a Unitarian same as John Adams, meaning a non-trinitarian Protestant Christian, ...

From the Monticello Report (http://www.monticello.org/reports/interests/religion.html) :

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

Jefferson was always reluctant to reveal his religious beliefs to the public, but at times he would speak to and reflect upon the public dimension of religion. He was raised as an Anglican, but was influenced by English deists such as Bolingbroke and Shaftesbury. Thus in the spirit of the Enlightenment, he made the following recommendation to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787: "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." In Query XVII of Notes on the State of Virginia, he clearly outlines the views which led him to play a leading role in the campaign to separate church and state and which culminated in the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom: "The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg . . . . Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error." Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist.

With the help of Richard Price, a Unitarian minister in London, and Joseph Priestly, an English scientist-clergyman who emigrated to America in 1794, Jefferson eventually arrived at some positive assertions of his private religion. His ideas are nowhere better expressed than in his compilations of extracts from the New Testament "The Philosophy of Jesus" (1804) and "The Life and Morals of Jesus" (1819-20?). The former stems from his concern with the problem of maintaining social harmony in a republican nation. The latter is a multilingual collection of verses that was a product of his private search for religious truth. Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian, but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." --

And from Wikipedia  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson#Religious_views) :

Under the influence of several professors he converted to the deist philosophy."

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Wow, this thread has gone off and few different directions and ultimatley about I think how Christianity impacts life.  It is all a matter of whether I am working from my self will and kingdom, say as the "christian" used car dealer mentioned, or living life in surrender to Jesus and advancing the kingdom of God.  This permeates all life. But following God doesn't assure having a good life. 

A good life is often define by "self" kingdom terms.  Lack of suffering, good job,good health,  plenty of toys and so on.  Bible never promises any of that, true life is in the Kingdom of God. A true Good life is being able to be content regarless of situation, be it in much, be it in want, be it in persecution.

Welcome to the discussion.  I would agree with all you say but

"God doesn't assure having a good life"

I am enjoying a good life but I think I would enjoy a good life no matter what if I have faith is God.  We had dinner last week with a freind in a wheelchair who lost both legs years ago and spent a week in the hospital with other maladies requiring a great deal of extra care.  We had a great time, thank God, and thank you God for helping John enjoy the "good life" that he does.

Then, Lee, I would say you and your friend have a different view of what constitutes a good life from many other people. Your view goes along with mine moreso, really; being in appreciation for what you have, making the most out of it all, having people you love around you, etc. I think that is a very mature and practical view.

But as was mentioned before, it seems like a good many people in our society (most, perhaps) have the idea of a good life being freedom from suffering, everything you need or want, etc. Your view, and it seems that of your friend, doesn't ignore these, but seems to focus on making lemonade when handed lemons. But many people in our modern society, this 'material prosperity' generation, and especially in some branches of the faith, believe a 'good life' is an absence of lemons.
And God does not promise *that*. In fact, I recall in several places we are told that we *will* have trials, *will* have our problems. To me, it seems that these things mainly serve to strengthen us and our faith, even though we aren't going to like it at the time.

And to the 'religion of the White House' point, I don't much care if the President claims to be a Christian so much as if he/she acts like one. Serving the country and putting that first, doing what he says he will do, being honorable, etc. And if I recall correctly, it seems that many of the Founding Fathers were deists (I was one at one time as well) or had beliefs or associations outside the realm of what many today would call orthodox Christianity.  But then, many of us do.

[jacknky]

"Do you live a good life?  And if so, why?"

I normally don't think in those terms. I certainly lead a good life compared to the millions on earth who live in abject poverty. I have the resources to try to learn and grow on a personal level which many humans who are simply trying to survive lack. As for why I am relatively fortunate I certainly have no sense of being more worthy or that God has smiled on me. I think it's simply that I had the good fortune to be born into a wealthy country to parents who loved me.