Christianity- the Good Life

[Lilly]

From the Monticello Report (http://www.monticello.org/reports/interests/religion.html) :

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

Jefferson was always reluctant to reveal his religious beliefs to the public, but at times he would speak to and reflect upon the public dimension of religion. He was raised as an Anglican, but was influenced by English deists such as Bolingbroke and Shaftesbury. Thus in the spirit of the Enlightenment, he made the following recommendation to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787: "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." In Query XVII of Notes on the State of Virginia, he clearly outlines the views which led him to play a leading role in the campaign to separate church and state and which culminated in the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom: "The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg . . . . Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error." Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist.

With the help of Richard Price, a Unitarian minister in London, and Joseph Priestly, an English scientist-clergyman who emigrated to America in 1794, Jefferson eventually arrived at some positive assertions of his private religion. His ideas are nowhere better expressed than in his compilations of extracts from the New Testament "The Philosophy of Jesus" (1804) and "The Life and Morals of Jesus" (1819-20?). The former stems from his concern with the problem of maintaining social harmony in a republican nation. The latter is a multilingual collection of verses that was a product of his private search for religious truth. Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian, but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." --

Although Jefferson may have been reluctant to reveal his religious beliefs in public, he certainly did reveal them in his letters to Adams, Rush, Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse and others.  I've read his writings in the book, Jefferson Writings.   His beliefs were Unitarian and he believed that through religious freedom most Americans would eventually adopt his beliefs and become Unitarian.  They didn't.  He opposed trinitarians, who he called Athanasians, and embraced the beliefs of Arius.  He considered himself to be a "true Christian" by his own words, but was not orthodox in any way.  You can call him a Deist if you want, but that's a rather broad term which I don't think really gives adequate insight into Jefferson's religious beliefs.  Deists may reject Jesus Christ and his teachings.  Jefferson never did.

Some quotes of a letter from Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Rush:

"I am indeed, opposed to the corruption of Christianity, but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself.  I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other."

"Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christian.  I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its creed and its conscience to neither kings nor priests, the genuine doctrine of one only God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian."

[Acumen]

"Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christian.  I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its creed and its conscience to neither kings nor priests, the genuine doctrine of one only God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian."

I agree with Jefferson here.

[Faithfulee]

But as was mentioned before, it seems like a good many people in our society (most, perhaps) have the idea of a good life being freedom from suffering, everything you need or want, etc. Your view, and it seems that of your friend, doesn't ignore these, but seems to focus on making lemonade when handed lemons. But many people in our modern society, this 'material prosperity' generation, and especially in some branches of the faith, believe a 'good life' is an absence of lemons.

And God does not promise *that*. In fact, I recall in several places we are told that we *will* have trials, *will* have our problems. To me, it seems that these things mainly serve to strengthen us and our faith, even though we aren't going to like it at the time.

And to the 'religion of the White House' point, I don't much care if the President claims to be a Christian so much as if he/she acts like one. Serving the country and putting that first, doing what he says he will do, being honorable, etc. And if I recall correctly, it seems that many of the Founding Fathers were deists (I was one at one time as well) or had beliefs or associations outside the realm of what many today would call orthodox Christianity.  But then, many of us do.

I am less concerned about the "religion" of the White House occupant than his values and his determination to protect the constitution.  This of the way that President takes the abuse that liberals give him and compare that with the way Obama handles the comments of opponents and you get some idea of "values" that a President neds.

But Personally, even though God doesn't guarantee us a life free of troubles, he does say that he will be with us Always to overcome them.  I learned that lesson as I sat in the hospital waiting room waiting for the diagnosis of my first born five year old girl.  Jesus was there holding my and and assuring me.  My daughter died that night, but Jesus had was and is there every time I reach out for it.  That alone  makes for a good life, doesn't it

Dinner is served and I shall return.

[jacknky]

Lilly,
"Deists may reject Jesus Christ and his teachings.  Jefferson never did."

It's my understanding that Jefferson embraced the morality of Christianity which are really universal truths not unique to Christianity. "Do unto others..." is an example of a universal truth. But Jefferson also repeatedly attacked religion's practices as superstitions and didn't believe in miracles, saints, salvation, damnation or angelic presences. He strongly opposed those like Patrick Henry who wanted to establish some form of theocracy. Reason, materialism and science were Jefferson's strongest influences:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god, because if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason then that of blindfolded fear."

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him (Jesus) by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."

"I know that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the same coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

--all quotes from Thomas Jefferson

[Faithfulee]

Lilly,

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god, because if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason then that of blindfolded fear."

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him (Jesus) by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."

"I know that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the same coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

--all quotes from Thomas Jefferson

For those of us who believe in a God who we know imperfectly and continue to study and gain understanding of our faith,  Christianity is for us a Good life.

Jefferson reflects an understanding of God that some held at his time.  I certainly can understand his skepticism.  Christianity has grown up,  Jefferson didn't have the opportunity to live and learn what we know know about Christianity.  Some good people are still with "Jeffersonian thinking" when it comes to Religion.

Thos of us who enjoy "the good life" of mature Christianity have grown up.

[Lilly]

Lilly,
"Deists may reject Jesus Christ and his teachings.  Jefferson never did."

It's my understanding that Jefferson embraced the morality of Christianity which are really universal truths not unique to Christianity. "Do unto others..." is an example of a universal truth. But Jefferson also repeatedly attacked religion's practices as superstitions and didn't believe in miracles, saints, salvation, damnation or angelic presences. He strongly opposed those like Patrick Henry who wanted to establish some form of theocracy. Reason, materialism and science were Jefferson's strongest influences...

I do understand that Jefferson believed in reason, and rejected revelation and miracles.  He also believed in an afterlife and prayer.  To say that Jefferson embraced the morality of Christianity which can be found anywhere and nothing more is not giving him his full due in my opinion.  The morality of Christianity was not found among the Paganism of Europe.  That's one aspect that attracted so many in the West to Christianity.  Jefferson did more than simply embrace a common morality, he embraced Jesus Christ and his teachings, and he considered himself a Christian. 

I completely disagree with Jefferson's view of "true Christianity" if that makes you feel better.  I'm not saying he wasn't way out there.  He didn't like Paul!  I love Paul.  And yes, Jefferson had harsh words for orthodox Christians and those who believed in the Trinity.  In a letter to Dr. Waterhouse about teaching people of his day not to abuse wine and tobacco, he writes, "You will find it as difficult to inculcate these sanative precepts on the sensualities of the present day, as to convince an Athanasian (trinitarian) that there is but one God.  I wish you success to both attempts, and am happy to learn from you that the latter, at least, is making progress, and the more rapidly in proportion as our Platonizing Christians make more stir and noise about it.  The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man."

In other words Jefferson was not simply pushing a general morality.  He had a distinct Unitarian Christian view and was quite angry and sarcastic towards Christians who didn't hold his understanding of Christianity.  Whenever you read him rail against Christians, you must put it in the context of the fact that he is railing against a form of Christianity he rejects, not that he doesn't believe in his own version of the teachings of Christ and Christianity.

[Faithfulee]

Thank you lilly

Ths dissenters are focusing on the differences in how Christians live their Christian beliefs rather than the comman beliefs that keep us together.  No matter what "breed" of Christianity one ascribes too  we can all live  THE GOOD LIFE'

God Bless

[Acumen]

Acumen,
"...today's culture is one of pride, patriotism and personal ownership."

This is an honest question. I thought pride was a "sin" in Christian theology but it seems to have been transformed into a virtue by some Christians. They're "proud" to be an American when it seems to me we ought to be thankful we've been born into a wealthy country.

A really good question.  Pride is traditionally considered one of the most deplorable sins from a Christian perspective.  However, this brand of pride relates to the self, not to others.  There is a distinction between pride and arrogance.  Pride is a reasonable self-respect or self appreciation, whereas arrogance is more excessive, unreasonable, and exaggerative.  Pride opens the door for arrogance, but both are sinful in their own right as it exalts the self above others and God.

I don't think that pride in one's country is a sin, unless one believes their country is greater than God, or perhaps one's country is great on account of their own contributions.     

[jacknky]

Lilly,

Thank you of your posts about Jefferson. I guess it's hard to truly "label" someone who lived so long ago. perhaps we read into his words what we want. But here are a few more quotes that indicate to me that Jefferson would not have fit into tday's Christian church.

"If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Athesist?... Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God."

You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am od a sect by myself, as far as I know."

As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurean. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrinbes of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us."

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classified with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter."

[jacknky]

Acumen,
"Pride is a reasonable self-respect or self appreciation, whereas arrogance is more excessive, unreasonable, and exaggerative."

In Buddhism the less "self-appreciation" the better. I guess the danger in that idea is that we don't go too far in the other direction toward self-denigration. But I like the concept that it might be best to consider ourselves as part of everyone and everything else, not separate from everything and everyone else.

[Acumen]

I like that concept as well as long as it doesn't detract from individual responsibility.

[Faithfulee]

Acumen,
"Pride is a reasonable self-respect or self appreciation, whereas arrogance is more excessive, unreasonable, and exaggerative."

In Buddhism the less "self-appreciation" the better. I guess the danger in that idea is that we don't go too far in the other direction toward self-denigration. But I like the concept that it might be best to consider ourselves as part of everyone and everything else, not separate from everything and everyone else.

I am proud of the Christian commandment "love you neighbor as youself"  I try to live that.  To me it sets the "self appreciation" issue in the proper perspective. 

Also part of the Christian doctrine is the lesson that we are all part of God's creation.

That is all part of living the Good Life as this Christian does.

[jacknky]

Lee,
"I am proud of the Christian commandment "love you neighbor as youself"  I try to live that.  To me it sets the "self appreciation" issue in the proper perspective."

Yes, that is a very good way to live. You'll get no argument from me. 

"Also part of the Christian doctrine is the lesson that we are all part of God's creation."

I too believe that we are all connected simply by being human and being alive. That applies to Americans, Iranians, Russians and even (gasp) the French.

[metis]

I too believe that we are all connected simply by being human and being alive. That applies to Americans, Iranians, Russians and even (gasp) the French.

Watch your step here, buddy-- remember, we invented the guillotine! 

[jacknky]

I'm a great lover of the French. And what a First Lady!!

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

..the desserts and the wine rock too!

[Faithfulee]

Jack

You will get no argument from me about all being connected and being alive.

But Christianity  puts that relationship as one with God at it’s center, and the Christian response to “love thy neighbor”  means we start with respecting others and loving them.

The life can be difficult when we see others not respecting Christianity or Christian principles.  How do we act??

We are discussing this in “Christianity vs Islam” where I find that the propensity to “love thy neighbor”  leads to our ignoring the  violations  of that message as well as the basic human  and civil rights as reflected in how Muslims treat some Christians. 

Christian life can be too good, if we ignore the plight of other humans around the world.

[jacknky]

Lee,
"Christianity has grown up,  Jefferson didn't have the opportunity to live and learn what we know know about Christianity."

I know it's been awhile since you wrote this but I'm wondering what you're thinking of that has changed in Christianity since the time of Jefferson so that Christianity has "grown up".

[Acumen]

Jack,

Faithfulee left this forum because he was asked not to crusade against Islam here.  Apparently he thought his crusade was more important than BC. 

[jacknky]

OK. Thanks.