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Which 10 commandments?
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Topic: Which 10 commandments? (Read 379 times)
MarcAurel
Full Member
Posts: 177
Which 10 commandments?
«
on:
August 16, 2008, 01:01:28 AM »
There are two different versions of the 10 commandments in the Bible, the first one in Exodus 20 and another one in Exodus 34 after the first two tablet have been broken.
1. Why are they different even though God claims that he would write exactly the same on the second set of tablets?
Exodus 34:1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and
I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets
, which you broke."
2. Why is only one of them being followed today and the other one ignored?
3. Who wrote the second set of tablets, God or Moses?
Exodus 34:1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and
I will write on them
the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke."
Exodus 34: 27 Then the LORD
said to Moses, "Write down these words
, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And
he wrote on the tablets
the words of the covenant—
the Ten Commandments
.
Logged
gluadys
Veteran
Faith: Christian
Posts: 526
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #1 on:
August 16, 2008, 07:57:28 AM »
Quote from: MarcAurel on August 16, 2008, 01:01:28 AM
There are two different versions of the 10 commandments in the Bible, the first one in Exodus 20 and another one in Exodus 34 after the first two tablet have been broken.
1. Why are they different even though God claims that he would write exactly the same on the second set of tablets?
Exodus 34:1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and
I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets
, which you broke."
2. Why is only one of them being followed today and the other one ignored?
3. Who wrote the second set of tablets, God or Moses?
Exodus 34:1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and
I will write on them
the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke."
Exodus 34: 27 Then the LORD
said to Moses, "Write down these words
, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And
he wrote on the tablets
the words of the covenant—
the Ten Commandments
.
There is a third version as well in Deuteronomy 5:6-21.
It is very similar to the one in Exodus 20, but there are some significant differences. e.g. the command to remember the sabbath is linked to the exodus "...so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt..." So it is justice-oriented rather than creation-oriented as in Exodus.
And according to Deuteronomy, this is what was written on the first set of tablets, not the replacement set. It does tell in Deuteronomy 10 about the second set, but does not give the actual wording. Just that it was the same as on the first set.
Makes you wonder just what was really on those tablets.
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Acumen
Veteran
Faith: Protestant
Posts: 3451
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #2 on:
August 16, 2008, 08:11:46 AM »
Quote from: MarcAurel on August 16, 2008, 01:01:28 AM
There are two different versions of the 10 commandments in the Bible, the first one in Exodus 20 and another one in Exodus 34 after the first two tablet have been broken.
Remember what I said about careful reading? First 10 were given in Exodus 20 and the second 10 were given (not in Exodus 34) in Deut. 5.
Quote
1. Why are they different even though God claims that he would write exactly the same on the second set of tablets?
Exodus 34:1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and
I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets
, which you broke."
Again, a careful reading. God didn't say they would be the exact same, but rather "like the first ones."
Quote
3. Who wrote the second set of tablets, God or Moses?
Exodus 34:1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and
I will write on them
the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke."
Exodus 34: 27 Then the LORD
said to Moses, "Write down these words
, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And
he wrote on the tablets
the words of the covenant—
the Ten Commandments
.
Sounds like Moses made a transcript of the Ten God wrote.
Logged
The end of argument or discussion should be, not victory, but enlightenme
gluadys
Veteran
Faith: Christian
Posts: 526
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #3 on:
August 16, 2008, 03:00:05 PM »
Quote from: Acumen on August 16, 2008, 08:11:46 AM
Quote from: MarcAurel on August 16, 2008, 01:01:28 AM
There are two different versions of the 10 commandments in the Bible, the first one in Exodus 20 and another one in Exodus 34 after the first two tablet have been broken.
Remember what I said about careful reading? First 10 were given in Exodus 20 and the second 10 were given (not in Exodus 34) in Deut. 5.
Better practice what you preach on careful reading Acumen. The list in Deuteronomy 5 were the first 10, supposedly the same as the list in Exodus 20. Note Deut. 5:4 "Then the LORD spoke with you face to face out of the mountain, out of the fire.." just as in Exodus 20:18.
The second 10 are mentioned but not listed in Deuteronomy 10.
The second 10 are listed in Exodus 34. Note the preamble in Exodus 34:1-4. These are clearly the second set of tablets, unlike those in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 which are both clearly the commandments given in God's own voice from Mt. Sinai and written on the first set of tablets.
Quote
Again, a careful reading. God didn't say they would be the exact same, but rather "like the first ones."
But are they like the first ones? No mention of honouring one's parents, or abstaining from murder, adultery, theft, false witness or covetousness. Instead, many commands not listed in either Exodus 20 or Deut. 5 such as :
make no covenant with the inhabitants of Canaan and refrain from intermarriage with them
keep the festival of unleavened bread
devote the firstborn to the LORD (sacrifice the first-born of clean animals; redeem the first-born of humans and of unclean animals)
observe the three annual festivals
don't add leaven to a sacrifice
bring your firstfruits to the LORD
do not boil a kid in its mother's milk.
As far as I can see the only commands repeated from Exodus 20 are the prohibition on making idols and the observance of the seventh day as a sabbath.
Quote
Sounds like Moses made a transcript of the Ten God wrote.
Some transcript.
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Acumen
Veteran
Faith: Protestant
Posts: 3451
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #4 on:
August 16, 2008, 04:21:48 PM »
Quote from: gluadys on August 16, 2008, 03:00:05 PM
Quote from: Acumen on August 16, 2008, 08:11:46 AM
Quote from: MarcAurel on August 16, 2008, 01:01:28 AM
There are two different versions of the 10 commandments in the Bible, the first one in Exodus 20 and another one in Exodus 34 after the first two tablet have been broken.
Remember what I said about careful reading? First 10 were given in Exodus 20 and the second 10 were given (not in Exodus 34) in Deut. 5.
Better practice what you preach on careful reading Acumen. The list in Deuteronomy 5 were the first 10, supposedly the same as the list in Exodus 20. Note Deut. 5:4 "Then the LORD spoke with you face to face out of the mountain, out of the fire.." just as in Exodus 20:18.
If they are the same set of commandments, then why is there an alteration in the 4th commandment in Deuteronomy? Keep in mind, in Deuteronomy, Moses was speaking to a different generation of Hebrews than in Exodus, so which version do you think Moses gave them in Deuteronomy?
Quote
The second 10 are listed in Exodus 34. Note the preamble in Exodus 34:1-4. These are clearly the second set of tablets, unlike those in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 which are both clearly the commandments given in God's own voice from Mt. Sinai and written on the first set of tablets.
There is no second 10 listed in Exodus 34 as I told Marc, and this is something you should have taken note of. Go back and read the chapter, then tell me if you can find the 10 commandments/words in that chapter that corresponds with the 10 in Exodus 20. You won't find it because it's in Deuteronomy.
Quote
Quote
Again, a careful reading. God didn't say they would be the exact same, but rather "like the first ones."
But are they like the first ones?
Yes.
Quote
No mention of honouring one's parents, or abstaining from murder, adultery, theft, false witness or covetousness. Instead, many commands not listed in either Exodus 20 or Deut. 5 such as :
That' because the second 10 wasn't in Exodus 34. Exodus 20 lists the 10 commandments given to the people of Israel before Moses broke the tables of stone. He went back up, made new ones, and the 10 given in Leviticus is based upon those, hence the slight alteration.
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The end of argument or discussion should be, not victory, but enlightenme
gluadys
Veteran
Faith: Christian
Posts: 526
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #5 on:
August 16, 2008, 07:40:58 PM »
Quote from: Acumen on August 16, 2008, 04:21:48 PM
If they are the same set of commandments, then why is there an alteration in the 4th commandment in Deuteronomy?
Good question. But you don't get to change the text to say these are not the words written on the first set of tablets, because the text of Deuteronomy says they are. Read both Deuteronomy 5 and Deuteronomy 10 and you cannot avoid the fact that in Deuteronomy 5 the author is speaking of the 1st set of tablets--the ones Moses broke. Read Deuteronomy 9 where he tells of breaking them (Deut. 9:17) Then he speaks in chapter 10 of making the second set.
Sorry if the text of scripture causes you problems, but solving the problem by changing the text is out of the question.
Quote
Keep in mind, in Deuteronomy, Moses was speaking to a different generation of Hebrews than in Exodus, so which version do you think Moses gave them in Deuteronomy?
True, yet although this generation was not at Horeb (Sinai) look at how Moses introduces the commandments in Deuteronomy 5.
The LORD our God made a covenant with
us
at Horeb. Not with our ancestors did the LORD make this covenant, but with
us
who are
all of us here alive today.
The LORD spoke with
you
face-to-face at the mountain.
Quote
There is no second 10 listed in Exodus 34 as I told Marc, and this is something you should have taken note of.
Sure there is. Exodus 34: 10-27 Earlier in the chapter, he makes the second set of tablets.
Quote
Go back and read the chapter, then tell me if you can find the 10 commandments/words in that chapter that corresponds with the 10 in Exodus 20.
You can't. That is the point. The ten commandments of Exodus 34 are very different from those of Exodus 20. Only on two points do they coincide.
You shall not make cast idols (v. 17) &
Six days shall you work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even in plowing time and harvest time, you shall rest. (v. 21)
The other eight are all different.
But according to the author of Exodus, this is what was written on the second set of tablets.
Quote
You won't find it because it's in Deuteronomy.
Those in Deuteronomy 5 are the ones written on the first set of tablets. What was written on the second set of tablets is not specified. All it says is:
Then [the LORD] wrote on the tablets the same words as before, the ten commandments that the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain out of the fire on the day of assembly. Deut. 10:4
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Acumen
Veteran
Faith: Protestant
Posts: 3451
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #6 on:
August 16, 2008, 08:01:39 PM »
Quote from: gluadys on August 16, 2008, 07:40:58 PM
Quote from: Acumen on August 16, 2008, 04:21:48 PM
If they are the same set of commandments, then why is there an alteration in the 4th commandment in Deuteronomy?
Good question. But you don't get to change the text to say these are not the words written on the first set of tablets, because the text of Deuteronomy says they are. Read both Deuteronomy 5 and Deuteronomy 10 and you cannot avoid the fact that in Deuteronomy 5 the author is speaking of the 1st set of tablets--the ones Moses broke. Read Deuteronomy 9 where he tells of breaking them (Deut. 9:17) Then he speaks in chapter 10 of making the second set.
Sorry if the text of scripture causes you problems, but solving the problem by changing the text is out of the question.
Are you listening to what you're saying? Moses is talking to a later generation about the ten commandments, not the earlier generation that caused him to break the tablets. Why, pray tell, would Moses recite the original ten commandments that were broken, gone, and obsolete wh6en he had an intact, surviving, and usable set written from YHVH? What is the purpose of the latter set?
Your problem is chronology. In Leviticus, Moses may have chronicled that he broke the tablets in an earlier chapter, but this doesn't alter the fact he's reciting a different set of commandments than the one given in Exodus 20. Why is the Leviticus set different if he's essentially referring to the Exodus set? It makes more sense that the recital in Leviticus is the latter set, not only because the set up is different, but because he's telling another generation about the covenant and presumably referring to the set he has at his disposal in the Ark of the Covenant, not to some obsolete set that was demolished a generation earlier.
Quote
Quote
Keep in mind, in Deuteronomy, Moses was speaking to a different generation of Hebrews than in Exodus, so which version do you think Moses gave them in Deuteronomy?
True, yet although this generation was not at Horeb (Sinai) look at how Moses introduces the commandments in Deuteronomy 5.
The LORD our God made a covenant with
us
at Horeb. Not with our ancestors did the LORD make this covenant, but with
us
who are
all of us here alive today.
The LORD spoke with
you
face-to-face at the mountain.
And? The point was one of emphasis, Gluadys. Moses wants the Israelites to realize that this covenant is equally applicable to them as it was to their fathers.
Quote
Quote
Go back and read the chapter, then tell me if you can find the 10 commandments/words in that chapter that corresponds with the 10 in Exodus 20.
You can't. That is the point. The ten commandments of Exodus 34 are very different from those of Exodus 20. Only on two points do they coincide.
You shall not make cast idols (v. 17) &
Six days shall you work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even in plowing time and harvest time, you shall rest. (v. 21)
The other eight are all different.
What sense does that make? God gives the Israelites the ten commandments, the very basis of their covenant, only to change 80% of it a few days later? Come on, Gluadys, think about it. Those aren't the second set. If they were, then why wouldn't Moses have used them when renewing the covenant with the second generation of Israelites? Your interpretation causes more problems that it solves. It's not ME who is having problems with the text, it is YOU.
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The end of argument or discussion should be, not victory, but enlightenme
gluadys
Veteran
Faith: Christian
Posts: 526
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #7 on:
August 16, 2008, 08:39:05 PM »
Quote from: Acumen on August 16, 2008, 08:01:39 PM
Are you listening to what you're saying?
Show me where what I am saying differs from the text of Exodus and Deuteronomy.
Quote
In Leviticus, Moses may have chronicled that he broke the tablets in an earlier chapter, but this doesn't alter the fact he's reciting a different set of commandments than the one given in Exodus 20.
Assuming you mean Deuteronomy, quite right. It is different from Exodus 20 and very different from Exodus 34. There is no altering that fact.
Quote
It makes more sense that the recital in Leviticus is the latter set, not only because the set up is different, but because he's telling another generation about the covenant and presumably referring to the set he has at his disposal in the Ark of the Covenant, not to some obsolete set that was demolished a generation earlier.
The point is that what makes sense to you is not what the text says.
Quote
And? The point was one of emphasis, Gluadys. Moses wants the Israelites to realize that this covenant is equally applicable to them as it was to their fathers.
Right, and that is how Jews understand it to this day. The covenant was made with them as if they themselves were at Sinai along with their ancestors.
Quote
What sense does that make? God gives the Israelites the ten commandments, the very basis of their covenant, only to change 80% of it a few days later? Come on, Gluadys, think about it. Those aren't the second set. If they were, then why wouldn't Moses have used them when renewing the covenant with the second generation of Israelites? Your interpretation causes more problems that it solves. It's not ME who is having problems with the text, it is YOU.
No, it is you that is having problems with the text. You want it to make sense. And in order to have it make sense, you insist that the commandments in Exodus 34 are not those written on the second set of tablets when the text says they were and that the commandments of Deut. 5 could not have been written on the first set of tablets although the text clearly says they were.
I am only pointing out what the text says.
Interpretation must stick to what the text actually says, whether it makes sense or not. You don't get to change the text because you have trouble making sense of it as it is.
Your problem is that you are trying to impose your sense of rationality on texts which defy a rational interpretation.
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MarcAurel
Full Member
Posts: 177
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #8 on:
August 17, 2008, 03:26:36 AM »
Quote from: Acumen on August 16, 2008, 08:11:46 AM
Remember what I said about careful reading? First 10 were given in Exodus 20 and the second 10 were given (not in Exodus 34) in Deut. 5.
I'm sorry but it's you who hasn't read it carefully. The commandment in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 are more or less the same. The different set of the 10 commandments is found in Exodus 34. Verse 28:
Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—
the Ten Commandments
.
Quote
Again, a careful reading. God didn't say they would be the exact same, but rather "like the first ones."
I'm sorry but it's you again who doesn't seem to read carefully:
Exodus 34:1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and
I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets
, which you broke.
The stone tablets might not have LOOKED the same but the words on them should have been the same as on the first set of tablets. At least that's what the LORD claims in verse 1.
Quote
Quote
3. Who wrote the second set of tablets, God or Moses?
Exodus 34:1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and
I will write on them
the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke."
Exodus 34: 27 Then the LORD
said to Moses, "Write down these words
, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And
he wrote on the tablets
the words of the covenant—
the Ten Commandments
.
Sounds like Moses made a transcript of the Ten God wrote.
So the 'he' in verse 28 refers to God not to Moses?
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MarcAurel
Full Member
Posts: 177
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #9 on:
August 17, 2008, 03:28:45 AM »
Quote from: Acumen on August 16, 2008, 04:21:48 PM
There is no second 10 listed in Exodus 34 as I told Marc, and this is something you should have taken note of. Go back and read the chapter, then tell me if you can find the 10 commandments/words in that chapter that corresponds with the 10 in Exodus 20. You won't find it because it's in Deuteronomy.
Of course there is a totally different version of the 10 commandments in Exodus 34. I suggest rereading it. Especially verse 28 if you still want to claim that the list isn't about the 10 commandments ...
To make it easier, here is the chapter:
Exodus 34:10 Then the LORD said: "I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. [a] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.
17 "Do not make cast idols.
18 "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.
19 "The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
"No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
21 "Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.
22 "Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.
25 "Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.
26 "Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
"Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk."
27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.
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Acumen
Veteran
Faith: Protestant
Posts: 3451
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #10 on:
August 17, 2008, 10:45:39 AM »
Marc,
You essentially said what Gluadys said before you, which doesn't make sense, nor can it be explained in a way that makes sense if you keep your interpretation. Essentially, you and Gluadys believe there is no interpretation that makes sense, which in my opinion, is not good exegesis.
Logged
The end of argument or discussion should be, not victory, but enlightenme
MarcAurel
Full Member
Posts: 177
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #11 on:
August 17, 2008, 10:50:19 AM »
Quote from: Acumen on August 17, 2008, 10:45:39 AM
Marc,
You essentially said what Gluadys said before you, which doesn't make sense, nor can it be explained in a way that makes sense if you keep your interpretation. Essentially, you and Gluadys believe there is no interpretation that makes sense, which in my opinion, is not good exegesis.
Please do excuse me for framing it in my own words ... I also hadn't read gluadys' post at the time.
So, what's your justification for these two radically different sets of 10 commandments? Because you can't deny that both sets are right there in Exodus 20 and 34, can you?
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Acumen
Veteran
Faith: Protestant
Posts: 3451
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #12 on:
August 17, 2008, 11:44:56 AM »
Quote from: MarcAurel on August 17, 2008, 10:50:19 AM
Quote from: Acumen on August 17, 2008, 10:45:39 AM
Marc,
You essentially said what Gluadys said before you, which doesn't make sense, nor can it be explained in a way that makes sense if you keep your interpretation. Essentially, you and Gluadys believe there is no interpretation that makes sense, which in my opinion, is not good exegesis.
Please do excuse me for framing it in my own words ... I also hadn't read gluadys' post at the time.
So, what's your justification for these two radically different sets of 10 commandments? Because you can't deny that both sets are right there in Exodus 20 and 34, can you?
My justification is based upon the point that Exodus 34 doesn't provide the second set of 10 commandments at all. I think any reasonable person who understands what the 10 commandments are and reads the entire chapter would realize this.
The set up in Exodus 20 has a distinctive shape and conciseness to it. We see a consecutive string of "thou shalt nots" and it assumes a verifiable and distinct form.
The alleged set in Exodus 34 doesn't come close in appearance to the "
Ten Commandments he had proclaimed to you on the mountain, out of the fire, on the day of the assembly
" as stated in Deuteronomy 10. In chapter 34, there is no consecutive string of "thou shalt nots," no verifiable similitude that jumps out as the "ten commandments," and there are simply more than ten commandments listed in the chapter.
Furthermore, the alleged 10 commandments given in Exodus 34 speaks of events relative to the contemporary political relationships with nation states such as treaties or alliances with Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. Such policies concerning international relations wouldn't make sense as being parcel to the timeless commandments given in the original ten commandments listed in chapter 20. Chapter 34 is merely a prologue to offer situational context to the ten commandment yet to be carved into the tables of stones.
Another interesting point is that in Exodus 20, the ten commandments were referred to as "tables of stone" whereas the second set were called "tables of stone
s
" It makes sense that the second is called tables of stones because Moses likely inscribed the additional prologue found in Exodus 34 along with the renewed 10 cited in Leviticus 5, so therefore more stones were required.
Either way, passages like these aren't at all that clear, and it hardly serves as a way of posing a contradiction.
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The end of argument or discussion should be, not victory, but enlightenme
Lilly
Moderator
Full Member
Faith: Christian
Posts: 160
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #13 on:
August 17, 2008, 04:15:13 PM »
I agree with Acumen. Deuteronomy is simply Moses giving the Law a second time to the next generation of Israelites as they were about to enter the promised land. He is giving them a reminder of how God expected them to live in the land he had promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Deuteronomy 5 and Exodus 20 are the same commandments, and they are the Ten Commandments God gave to the people of Israel at Sinai.
In Exodus 34 the LORD is meeting with Moses, not the people of Israel. They are about to leave the Desert of Sinai and Moses wants encouragement from the LORD, he wants to see His Glory and be assured the LORD will go before them. The LORD has him chisel out two stone tablets on which God promises to write the same Ten Commandments he gave Israel at Mount Sinai. Then God told Moses he is making a covenant with
Moses
and promises to show wonders before Moses' people. God then reiterates to Moses what he expects of him as leader of Israel. The next verses are not another list of Ten Commandments, but instructions to Moses that are in accordance (agreement, conformity) with the covenant. Moses is told to write them down. However, it was during the forty days and forty nights Moses was in the presence of the LORD that the LORD wrote the words of the original ten commandments on the tablets of stone Moses carved out.
"The LORD said to Moses, 'Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and
I will write
on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.'" Exodus 34:1
"Then the LORD said to Moses, '
Write down these words
, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.'" Exodus 34:27
"And HaShem said unto Moses: 'Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first; and
I will write
upon the tables the words that were on the first tables, which thou didst break.'" (JPS)
"And HaShem said unto Moses: '
Write thou
these words, for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.'" (JPS)
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Acumen
Veteran
Faith: Protestant
Posts: 3451
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #14 on:
August 17, 2008, 05:30:05 PM »
Quote from: Lilly on August 17, 2008, 04:15:13 PM
I agree with Acumen. Deuteronomy is simply Moses giving the Law a second time to the next generation of Israelites as they were about to enter the promised land. He is giving them a reminder of how God expected them to live in the land he had promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Deuteronomy 5 and Exodus 20 are the same commandments, and they are the Ten Commandments God gave to the people of Israel at Sinai.
In Exodus 34 the LORD is meeting with Moses, not the people of Israel. They are about to leave the Desert of Sinai and Moses wants encouragement from the LORD, he wants to see His Glory and be assured the LORD will go before them. The LORD has him chisel out two stone tablets on which God promises to write the same Ten Commandments he gave Israel at Mount Sinai. Then God told Moses he is making a covenant with
Moses
and promises to show wonders before Moses' people. God then reiterates to Moses what he expects of him as leader of Israel. The next verses are not another list of Ten Commandments, but instructions to Moses that are in accordance (agreement, conformity) with the covenant. Moses is told to write them down. However, it was during the forty days and forty nights Moses was in the presence of the LORD that the LORD wrote the words of the original ten commandments on the tablets of stone Moses carved out.
"The LORD said to Moses, 'Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and
I will write
on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.'" Exodus 34:1
"Then the LORD said to Moses, '
Write down these words
, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.'" Exodus 34:27
"And HaShem said unto Moses: 'Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first; and
I will write
upon the tables the words that were on the first tables, which thou didst break.'" (JPS)
"And HaShem said unto Moses: '
Write thou
these words, for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.'" (JPS)
I suppose if one wanted to see a contradiction, the text doesn't confute it. However, I think one would need to make a few assumptions to make the contradiction stick. Just saying.
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gluadys
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Posts: 526
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #15 on:
August 17, 2008, 08:16:21 PM »
Quote from: Lilly on August 17, 2008, 04:15:13 PM
I agree with Acumen. Deuteronomy is simply Moses giving the Law a second time to the next generation of Israelites as they were about to enter the promised land. He is giving them a reminder of how God expected them to live in the land he had promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Actually you are disagreeing with Acumen as he was trying to say the commandments in Deut. 5 were those on the second set of tablets. But you are agreeing that Moses is repeating the words said in Exodus 20.
Quote
Deuteronomy 5 and Exodus 20 are the same commandments, and they are the Ten Commandments God gave to the people of Israel at Sinai.
Right, except of course they are not exactly the same in detail, but they are basically the same set of commandments.
Quote
In Exodus 34 the LORD is meeting with Moses, not the people of Israel.
True, but he was alone with the LORD when the first set of tablets was made as well. Remember that the people were afraid when the LORD spoke to them directly. So they sent Moses to speak with him alone. This is stated in both Exodus 20: 21 and Deut. 5: 23-27.
It was Moses taking 40 days alone with God while the commandments were written on the first tablets that led to the Israelites assuming he was dead and making the golden calf to be their god. And that led to Moses breaking the first set of tablets and the need for a second set.
Quote
Then God told Moses he is making a covenant with
Moses
and promises to show wonders before Moses' people. God then reiterates to Moses what he expects of him as leader of Israel. The next verses are not another list of Ten Commandments, but instructions to Moses that are in accordance (agreement, conformity) with the covenant. Moses is told to write them down.
No, they are instructions to all of Israel. And the LORD describes them as the covenant he is making
"with you and with Israel."
v. 27 It was not Moses alone who was to keep the sabbath or observe the festivals, or to bring the first fruits to God. And in vs. 28 they are named "the ten commandments".
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gluadys
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Faith: Christian
Posts: 526
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #16 on:
August 17, 2008, 08:28:45 PM »
Quote from: Acumen on August 17, 2008, 10:45:39 AM
Marc,
You essentially said what Gluadys said before you, which doesn't make sense, nor can it be explained in a way that makes sense if you keep your interpretation. Essentially, you and Gluadys believe there is no interpretation that makes sense, which in my opinion, is not good exegesis.
Are you saying that good exegesis must make texts conform to each other when they don't? What is wrong with acknowledging the actual differences in different passages referring to the same event?
I don't think there is no interpretation that makes sense. But I will not accept a change in the text to make it fit my (or your) idea of good sense. Interpretation has to take into account real differences in the text, not pretend they are not there.
Quote
Another interesting point is that in Exodus 20, the ten commandments were referred to as "tables of stone" whereas the second set were called "tables of stones" It makes sense that the second is called tables of stones because Moses likely inscribed the additional prologue found in Exodus 34 along with the renewed 10 cited in Leviticus 5, so therefore more stones were required.
Is that in the Hebrew or in English translation? Which translation? The NRSV which is the one I use most says "tablets of stone" in all cases. The text never specifies more than two tablets. So "more stones" is a figment of your imagination.
btw, do you have difficulty with the name Deuteronomy? this is the 3rd post where you have said Leviticus when you mean Deuteronomy.
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Acumen
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Posts: 3451
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #17 on:
August 17, 2008, 09:12:53 PM »
Quote from: gluadys on August 17, 2008, 08:28:45 PM
Quote from: Acumen on August 17, 2008, 10:45:39 AM
Marc,
You essentially said what Gluadys said before you, which doesn't make sense, nor can it be explained in a way that makes sense if you keep your interpretation. Essentially, you and Gluadys believe there is no interpretation that makes sense, which in my opinion, is not good exegesis.
Are you saying that good exegesis must make texts conform to each other when they don't? What is wrong with acknowledging the actual differences in different passages referring to the same event?
What I'm saying is that good exegesis requires the reader to limit assumptions that tends to make a mess out of the text, which is something I believe you and Marc are not doing. I readily admit that this issue of God giving Moses two sets of commandments is a little confusing, but instead of presuming that the author of the text is intelligent and reasonable, you feel more comfortable presuming that he contradicts himself on something any author would have rightly seen. It makes no sense why an author would call the second set of commandments like the first, when there is a drastic difference between them. Your explanation is "it is what it is," which you feel comfortable with. Good exegesis isn't lazy. If something doesn't make sense, we need not twist the text to meet our preconceptions, but we should critically examine the text to see if there is something we're missing. I prefer to give the author the benefit of the doubt that I would expect anyone to give me if I had authored a text.
Quote
I don't think there is no interpretation that makes sense. But I will not accept a change in the text to make it fit my (or your) idea of good sense. Interpretation has to take into account real differences in the text, not pretend they are not there.
Where have I changed the text?
Quote
btw, do you have difficulty with the name Deuteronomy? this is the 3rd post where you have said Leviticus when you mean Deuteronomy.
Apparently I do. Thanks for the correction.
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MarcAurel
Full Member
Posts: 177
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #18 on:
August 17, 2008, 11:34:09 PM »
Quote from: Acumen on August 17, 2008, 11:44:56 AM
Quote from: MarcAurel on August 17, 2008, 10:50:19 AM
Quote from: Acumen on August 17, 2008, 10:45:39 AM
Marc,
You essentially said what Gluadys said before you, which doesn't make sense, nor can it be explained in a way that makes sense if you keep your interpretation. Essentially, you and Gluadys believe there is no interpretation that makes sense, which in my opinion, is not good exegesis.
Please do excuse me for framing it in my own words ... I also hadn't read gluadys' post at the time.
So, what's your justification for these two radically different sets of 10 commandments? Because you can't deny that both sets are right there in Exodus 20 and 34, can you?
My justification is based upon the point that Exodus 34 doesn't provide the second set of 10 commandments at all. I think any reasonable person who understands what the 10 commandments are and reads the entire chapter would realize this.
The set up in Exodus 20 has a distinctive shape and conciseness to it. We see a consecutive string of "thou shalt nots" and it assumes a verifiable and distinct form.
The alleged set in Exodus 34 doesn't come close in appearance to the "
Ten Commandments he had proclaimed to you on the mountain, out of the fire, on the day of the assembly
" as stated in Deuteronomy 10. In chapter 34, there is no consecutive string of "thou shalt nots," no verifiable similitude that jumps out as the "ten commandments," and there are simply more than ten commandments listed in the chapter.
Furthermore, the alleged 10 commandments given in Exodus 34 speaks of events relative to the contemporary political relationships with nation states such as treaties or alliances with Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. Such policies concerning international relations wouldn't make sense as being parcel to the timeless commandments given in the original ten commandments listed in chapter 20. Chapter 34 is merely a prologue to offer situational context to the ten commandment yet to be carved into the tables of stones.
Another interesting point is that in Exodus 20, the ten commandments were referred to as "tables of stone" whereas the second set were called "tables of stone
s
" It makes sense that the second is called tables of stones because Moses likely inscribed the additional prologue found in Exodus 34 along with the renewed 10 cited in Leviticus 5, so therefore more stones were required.
Either way, passages like these aren't at all that clear, and it hardly serves as a way of posing a contradiction.
So when the Bible refers to this other set of commandments as 'the ten commandments' in Exodus 34:27 then the Bible doesn't really mean 'the ten commandment'!?
Because that's what it says. Black on white: 'the ten commandments'.
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MarcAurel
Full Member
Posts: 177
Re: Which 10 commandments?
«
Reply #19 on:
August 17, 2008, 11:36:32 PM »
Quote from: Lilly on August 17, 2008, 04:15:13 PM
I agree with Acumen. Deuteronomy is simply Moses giving the Law a second time to the next generation of Israelites as they were about to enter the promised land. He is giving them a reminder of how God expected them to live in the land he had promised Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Deuteronomy 5 and Exodus 20 are the same commandments, and they are the Ten Commandments God gave to the people of Israel at Sinai.
In Exodus 34 the LORD is meeting with Moses, not the people of Israel. They are about to leave the Desert of Sinai and Moses wants encouragement from the LORD, he wants to see His Glory and be assured the LORD will go before them. The LORD has him chisel out two stone tablets on which God promises to write the same Ten Commandments he gave Israel at Mount Sinai. Then God told Moses he is making a covenant with
Moses
and promises to show wonders before Moses' people. God then reiterates to Moses what he expects of him as leader of Israel. The next verses are not another list of Ten Commandments, but instructions to Moses that are in accordance (agreement, conformity) with the covenant. Moses is told to write them down. However, it was during the forty days and forty nights Moses was in the presence of the LORD that the LORD wrote the words of the original ten commandments on the tablets of stone Moses carved out.
"The LORD said to Moses, 'Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and
I will write
on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.'" Exodus 34:1
"Then the LORD said to Moses, '
Write down these words
, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.'" Exodus 34:27
"And HaShem said unto Moses: 'Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first; and
I will write
upon the tables the words that were on the first tables, which thou didst break.'" (JPS)
"And HaShem said unto Moses: '
Write thou
these words, for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.'" (JPS)
Yet that doesn't hold up:
27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down
these words
, for in accordance with
these words
I have made
a covenant
with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets
the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments
.
'these words' obviously refer to what he just proclaimed prior to this.
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