Does survival trump morality?

[VLinvictus]

Yehezkel Dror, a professor emeritus of political science at Hebrew Univeristy, had a provocative op-ed piece in the current Forward that touches on issues raised on this forum:

http://www.forward.com/articles/13388/

There is little disagreement that every Jewish leader, organization, community and individual has a duty to help ensure the continuity of the Jewish people. But in a world where the long-term existence of the Jewish state is far from certain, the imperative to exist inevitably gives rise to difficult questions, foremost among them this: When the survival of the Jewish people conflicts with the morals of the Jewish people, is existence worthwhile, or even possible?

Physical existence, I would argue, must come first. No matter how moral a society aspires to be, physical existence must take precedent.
...
Nonetheless, when faced with such choices, the Jewish people ought not be captivated by political correctness and other thinking-repressing fashions. When it comes to China, for example, efforts to strengthen the rising superpower’s ties to the Jewish people should trump moral-minded campaigns to alter Beijing’s domestic policies and handling of Tibet. The same goes for Turkey: Given its crucial peacemaking role in the Middle East, discussion of whether the Ottomans committed genocide against the Armenians ought to be left to historians, preferably non-Jewish ones.

That is not necessarily to condone China’s policies, or to deny Armenian history. Rather, it is to recognize that however just such moral stances may or may not be, the Jewish people must give primacy to existence.
...
Thus, if the security of Israel is significantly strengthened by good relations with Turkey and China, but in some views Turkey is guilty of genocide in the past against the Armenians and China of now repressing Tibetans and domestic opposition, Jewish leaders and organizations should support Turkey and China, or at least remain neutral when it comes to their affairs. At a minimum, Jewish leaders should not join the chorus of liberal and humanitarian actors condemning Turkey and China.

Similarly, Jewish leaders should support harsh measures against terrorists who potentially endanger Jews, even at the cost of human rights and humanitarian law. And if the threat is sufficiently grave, the use of weapons of mass destruction by Israel would be justified if likely to be necessary for assuring the state’s survival, the bitter price of large number of killed innocent civilians notwithstanding.
...
In short, the imperatives of existence should be given priority over other concerns — however important they may be — including liberal and humanitarian values, support for human rights and democratization.

This tragic but compelling conclusion is not easy to swallow, but it is essential for the future of the Jewish people. Once our existence is assured, including basic security for Israel, much can and should be sacrificed for tikkun olam. But given present and foreseeable realities, assuring existence must come first.

The question, though, is why should we exist as a people? What justifies our existence if not for the ethical vision we have bequeathed to the world and our commitment to it? If we have to compromise these ethical mandates to survive, is survival worthi it?

[agnon1]

No bread, no Torah.

No concrete survival, no ability for further Torah learning.

If I am not for myself, who will be? And if I am only for myself, what am I?


Our sages have agonized with this question for thousands of years. I would agree with you--compromising our values for survival make survival the end in itself--which one could argue is a form of idolatry. The true end of Torah--the moon at which the finger of Torah points--is creating a just society and knowing God. Since I don't believe that we can know God, that leaves tikkun olam.

I am not advocating that Jews commit suicide. I am just stating that if we are to pursue justice, than we most advocate for Tibetan self-determination and recognition of the Armenian genocide. That is different from suggesting that the IDF become pacifist or that synagogues stop all security measures.

To paraphrase Einstein: Survival without morality is blind; morality without survival is lame.

[sobeit9]

Ah yes, good ol Genocide denial surfaces again. 

I sent a link to the Jewish daily article to Rabbi David Wolpe since we shared on this question of recognition.  He gave a sermon on it and kindly sent me a CD.  I told him the other side needs to be heard.

I imagine when Beliefnet reads the article they will send a special contribution to the Jewish daily.

[river]

Here we go again.

It took less than 2 years when a country guilty of genocide, Germany, was built up again by the Marshall Plan and within that time, they were our closest allies.  All was forgotten.  They were our best friends.  A country guilty of the worst genocide in history and how soon we forgot.  Of course, by doing so, no one suffered for doing it.   Politically it was the right thing to do.

If Israel and the Jews even supported the Armenian request verbally, the lives of 20,000 Turkish Jews would be in jeopardy.  Of course, who cares about the lives of another 20,000 Jews after the 6 million?  Certainly not Sorbeit.   Whatever the cost of more Jewish lives, Sorbeit could care less as long as we support this declaration. 

It's all well and good for us to sit in our secure homes and make these wonderful humanitarian declarations, but the real question is, if you were a Turkish Jew,  how would you feel?   Would you want your lives and the lives of your children persecuted or killed in a terrible massacre if such a declaration were made?   You must have an answer to that question before we can stand up and say what I believe should be said. 

[sobeit9]

Here we go again.

It took less than 2 years when a country guilty of genocide, Germany, was built up again by the Marshall Plan and within that time, they were our closest allies.  All was forgotten.  They were our best friends.  A country guilty of the worst genocide in history and how soon we forgot.  Of course, by doing so, no Americans were murdered for doing it.   

If Israel and the Jews even supported the Armenian request verbally, the lives of 20,000 Turkish Jews would be in jeopardy.  Of course, who cares about the lives of another 20,000 Jews after the 6 million?  Certainly not Sorbeit.   Whatever the cost of more Jewish lives, Sorbeit could care less as long as we support this declaration. 

It's all well and good for us to sit in our secure homes and make these wonderful humanitarian declarations, but the real question is, if you were a Turkish Jew,  how would you feel?   Would you want your lives and the lives of your children persecuted or killed if such a declaration were made?   You must have an answer to that question before we can stand up and say what I believe should be said. 

Curious how men still having retained their balls like Rabbi Wolpe, Yair auron,  Dr. MichaeL Siegel, and a host of others are so cold towards these 20,000 Jews.

The truth is that they know who the callous people actually are and it repulses them as much as me.

[river]

Well we've already been through this once, in the Personal God thread, and now it looks as though we're going through it again.  I  hope Sorbeit and his followers enjoy themselves.  Everyone is so brave sitting at their personal computers.  After all, what do they have to worry about?

[Acumen]

River,

We do have some useful tools in place -- not saying that you should use them because they are for the use of all our members. 

http://beliefcorner.com/Forum/?topic=333.msg7389#new

[Acumen]

Common people, let's play nicely.  No need to get too personal.

[sobeit9]

Acumen

Sobeit's last post is a personal attack and should be removed immediately.

Agnon I am here to supply balance.  The phrase Jew-hater has been used against me by both Buns and River with the full approval of those advocates of balance: Howiedds and Acumen.  It is the way of the land.  As the same goes, In Rome, do as the Romans do.  Of course one expression is as stupid as the other but it is what sells and one balances the other.  Enjoy! Sleaze is always more gratifying than substance.

[SUPERMAN]

I temporarily hid posts that accused members of being Christ-haters or Jew-haters.  They will be reviewed by the administrative staff and a judgment will be made.

Thank you,

[sobeit9]

Anyhow, Rabbi Wolpe just reminded me how deeply he feels on this issue and I admire him for it.  He may even reply to Yehezkel Dror.  Now if in public that will be worth reading and a needed reply from a Rabbi of true moral courage.

[Akiva]

Anyhow, Rabbi Wolpe just reminded me how deeply he feels on this issue and I admire him for it.  He may even reply to Yehezkel Dror.  Now if in public that will be worth reading and a needed reply from a Rabbi of true moral courage.

Right.  Pondering the worth of our existence as a people reeks of the lack of "true moral courage." 


VL,

The heart and soul of humanity itself is found in different cultures and societies.  True, our ethical mandates make up much of who we are as a people, and should only be compromised when conflicting with existence itself.  In the words of Rabbi Akiva (and I think you said this to me somewhere else, recently) "Our neighbors are entitled to live alongside us, not instead of us" (BM62)

[VLinvictus]

VL,

The heart and soul of humanity itself is found in different cultures and societies.  True, our ethical mandates make up much of who we are as a people, and should only be compromised when conflicting with existence itself.  In the words of Rabbi Akiva (and I think you said this to me somewhere else, recently) "Our neighbors are entitled to live alongside us, not instead of us" (BM62)

Right, but what does it mean to "live?" Do we live as a nation for ourselves, with our own survival our highest goal, or do we live to be a "kingdom of priests and a holy nation," a "light unto the nations?"

I was struck by the nakedness of this article. "Existence" and "life" are not the same thing. Agnon quoted from Pirkei Avot "Ein kemach ein Torah" -- no bread, no Torah. The same paragraph also says "Ein Torah, ein kemach" -- no Torah, no bread.

Torah is the life of the Jewish people. Without it, we just "exist," and for what? Why should we have endured so much for so long to preserve our identity when it would have been so much easier to convert and assimilate and join the peoples around us? Why remain distinct if not for some higher purpose?

Compromise that purpose and one undermines the very life of the Jewish people. Note that the traditional teaching that all mitzvot can be overridden when life is in danger is not absolute. Under no circumstances are we to commit murder, to perform idolatry, or to engage in sexual depravity (incest, adultery, and bestiality). Rather, we are to accept death if need be. I would think that base survival for survival's sake falls under the rubric of idolatry.

[Howiedds]

Akiva, VL:

In the words of Rabbi Akiva (and I think you said this to me somewhere else, recently) "Our neighbors are entitled to live alongside us, not instead of us"

I think that those who expect Israel to act 100% better than all the other nations in an imperfect world, expect there to be no Israel.

[VLinvictus]

I think that those who expect Israel to act 100% better than all the other nations in an imperfect world, expect there to be no Israel.

That is very true. I do believe, though, that Israel has an obligation to always strive to be better than average -- and has so far succeeded in many, many regards. The realities of survival and political necessity must be taken into consideration, of course.

[river]

I think that those who expect Israel to act 100% better than all the other nations in an imperfect world, expect there to be no Israel.

Bingo. 

[Howiedds]

VL:
Howie:
I think that those who expect Israel to act 100% better than all the other nations in an imperfect world, expect there to be no Israel.

VL:
That is very true. I do believe, though, that Israel has an obligation to always strive to be better than average -- and has so far succeeded in many, many regards. The realities of survival and political necessity must be taken into consideration, of course.

I totally agree. I have heard Yitz Greenberg say that if Israel is 50% better than the other nations, it will be destroyed. If it is 25% better it will bring the Messiah. If it is 10% better it will still be a light unto the nations. 10% better might be bulldozing houses of terrorists instead of holding their families hostage as other nations might; going house to house to root out terrorists rather than bombing indiscriminately from 30,000 feet and taking more casualties as a result; it might mean building a "fence" to block terrorists crossing into Israel instead of destroying all within a 5 perimeter of the border and turning it into a no-man's-land to be surveilled. 

[river]

Gee, Sorbeit,

I guess you ignored my post at the Personal God thread you started when I listed 3 links to over 2000 years of Jewish persecution.   They didn't first come for the Jews, they always come first.  First,  last and always, and you would like them to come again.  After there are no Jews left, what ever will you do with your time?

[sobeit9]

Gee, Sorbeit,

I guess you ignored my post at the Personal God thread you started when I listed 3 links to over 2000 years of Jewish persecution.   They didn't first come for the Jews, they always come first.  First,  last and always, and you would like them to come again.  After there are no Jews left, what ever will you do with your time?

Chase women and play chess.  Unite the sensual with the logical

For emotional satisfaction, lets play the victim game. Judaism is ancient and Armenia and its persecutions go back so far we've even lost track.  I'll post pictures of the Armenian genocide and you post pictures of the Holocaust and we'll have a vote as to which are better.