Jewish atheists

[river]

At the risk of Jews being called stupid and blind here, as I was by a fundy on a different forum yesterday, because Jews "didn't believe in Jesus" perhaps I am stupid and blind.  I say this because I didn't understand anything on this page, so I decided not to read anymore.  It's all too complicated and too convoluted for me.  Must religion be like that?  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see why these discussions can't be a bit more simple so some of us retards can understand.  To put it simply,  Imo, I see no reason why Christians can't just believe what they like, and explain it in simple terms, and Jews can just believe what they like and explain it in simple terms.  And then each should leave the other alone to their own beliefs. 

[Akiva]

"Being a Jew has nothing to do with belief."
      Well there is jewish disagreement on that. 

Really?  I would be interested to examine any source which claims that a belief is a prerequisite for calling oneself Jewish.  I look forward to your citation.

[Acumen]

"Being a Jew has nothing to do with belief."
      Well there is jewish disagreement on that. 

Really?  I would be interested to examine any source which claims that a belief is a prerequisite for calling oneself Jewish.  I look forward to your citation.

What particular practice makes one a Jew? 

[VLinvictus]

What particular practice makes one a Jew? 

The practice of being born to a Jewish mother and/or, according to Reform and Reconstructionism, being born to a Jewish father.

The only instance in which Jewish identity is dependent on belief is in the case of conversion, and the beliefs required vary according to the community's understanding of Torah and the covenant. Once conversion is validly performed, though, it can never be undone even if the person later loses his belief.

[bunsinspace]

"You essentially removed any distinction between Christians and Jews."

then perhaps I approached an apostolic definition of the jesus religion.

jules

BS"D

I agree with Acuman's analysis of your perspective on Christianity  You have elevated Christianity to the level of your personally held universalistic perspective essentially rendering Jesus as irrelevant.  That is an interesting perspective and perhaps it would be an improvement upon the dogmatism of the numeric majority of Christians of most denominations worldwide, but I cannot say that it is the demonstrable norm for good or for evil.  I like your personal perspective, but it is as unique as your own particular genius IMHO.

As your excellent perspective of Christianity (IMHO) does not represent the norm, I concede that your "apostolic" [sic] Christianity is indistinguishable from the highest ideals of various Jewish esoteric sects and all the conclusions that are common to both.  But I must point out that you are rare for a Christian and I cannot share the perspective that I share with you with any significant number of other Christians - including those who are me deepest and dearest personal friends.

So I am discussuing a red herring with you.  You do not harbor the Jesus of historical Christianity as part of your mindset so none of those biases which I initially ascribed to you are in fact valid at all.  Unfortunately you evince a personal creed that is at odds with every extant published creed of Christendom past and present.  Your Christianity is akin to Einstein's Judaism.  Therefore our continued discussion on the points of divine perception by either majority Judaism or majority Christinaity are inherently limited to our person views alone and not valid in any other realm.

So I would like to redefine the parameters of our discussion as we have both made the representations of our respective majority faiths illegitimate (our views on either side are demonstrably NOT mainstream in this discussion).

Therefore I would like to begin again on this new personal playing field.  I maintain that for myself there exists no divine attribute which has any meaning other than as a reference to a divine command and has nothing to do with either the character or the essebce of the divine itself.  I also acknowledge that your Jesus, which is a principle rather than a person, is indistinguishable from my primary perspective of the actions of divine.  Now where do we go from here?

[bunsinspace]

At the risk of Jews being called stupid and blind here, as I was by a fundy on a different forum yesterday, because Jews "didn't believe in Jesus" perhaps I am stupid and blind.  I say this because I didn't understand anything on this page, so I decided not to read anymore.  It's all too complicated and too convoluted for me.  Must religion be like that?  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see why these discussions can't be a bit more simple so some of us retards can understand.  To put it simply,  Imo, I see no reason why Christians can't just believe what they like, and explain it in simple terms, and Jews can just believe what they like and explain it in simple terms.  And then each should leave the other alone to their own beliefs. 

BS"D

You're correct, of course.  But Big Julie has somehow transcended Christian dogma in his personal faith.  I would love to believe that the average Christian on the street can do that as well, for then it would all be a paradise as you say - leave each other alone to their own beliefs.  But since Christianity and Islam began, that particular quality of live and let live has only been evident among Jews as a people relative to Christians and Moslems.  Of course Jews share this affable quality with the majority of other theists and non-theists worldwide as that is where it came from AFAIK.

As I like your notion of simply explaining one's beliefs - as that is primarily what the RaMBaM did in his 13 "beliefs," I would like to take a stab at simplifying my own:

1. I believe in what I "see" (perceive) and what can be demonstrated or consistently conveyed by others.
2. I believe in Torah from Sinai as the foundational set of documents defining us as a Jewish people.
3. I believe Torah is a running guide from our ancestors beginning at Sinai recommending to the Jewish people how to live and that any other use of Torah is not uniquely Jewish.
4. I believe Torah is a living tree necessitating its fresh presentation for every generation and the clear presentation of all commentaries upon it based upon Jewish experience since Sinai.
5. I believe every Jew is an absolute sovereign regarding their own decisions and actions; absolutely responsible for them unless there are mitigating circumstances sharing responsibility.
6. I believe every Jew is communally responsible for the actions of every other Jew that is part of their community under Torah.  If one suffers we all suffer, if one succeeds we all succeed and no Jew left behind (ahavas yisroel) - in any area of human endeavor.
7. I believe every Jew is a priest fully responsible for living up to their own personal perceptions of Creation and the divine and only kohanim are to be held responsible for communal perceptions and their consequences in communal action.
8. I believe every Jew is obligated to know the history of the Jewish people.
9. I believe every Jew is obligated to know Creation as much as possible and to obey the divine commands as a MINIMUM standard of behavior in daily life (derekh eretz means if greater non-Jewish society is more strict than Torah we follow society's higher standards).
10. I believe every Jew is of inestimable worth and irreplaceable in the universe (as is every other human being) and that as a people we must work to maximize the freedom and quality of life for everyone.
11. I believe every Jew is a warrior and peace only comes through understanding and action.
12. I believe every Jew is a gift from Heaven (as is every human being) and we share a communal responsibility for raising our children the best we can as a people and correcting our adults when they stray into extremism.

[Akiva]

As long as there is ethnocentrism there will be no heaven.

This, from an adherent to a religion that finds it necessary to proselytize to the world.  Ironic, isn't it?

[VLinvictus]

As long as there is ethnocentrism there will be no heaven.

This, from an adherent to a religion that finds it necessary to proselytize to the world.  Ironic, isn't it?

I wonder what he means by "ethnocentrism?"

It is only through the particular that we can appreciate and understand the universal. It is only by accepting and appreciating what makes us unique as peoples that we can appreciate what unites us as humans. Universalizing philosophies have historically tended to be extensions of the individual's own culture and worldview imposed as the best for all peoples. That has generally not worked out well, for anyone.

Appreciation, pride, and celebration of our uniqueness is necessary for the proper appreciation and respect for our similarities. Jewishness is integral to our identities and is the mode by which we express our humanity. Through "ethnocentrism" we become and remain more Jewish and the more Jewish we are thereby the more human we are.

[Acumen]

What particular practice makes one a Jew? 

The practice of being born to a Jewish mother and/or, according to Reform and Reconstructionism, being born to a Jewish father.

The only instance in which Jewish identity is dependent on belief is in the case of conversion, and the beliefs required vary according to the community's understanding of Torah and the covenant. Once conversion is validly performed, though, it can never be undone even if the person later loses his belief.

So the idea that Judaism is not based upon beliefs is false.

[Acumen]

As long as there is ethnocentrism there will be no heaven.

This, from an adherent to a religion that finds it necessary to proselytize to the world.  Ironic, isn't it?

Jewishness is integral to our identities and is the mode by which we express our humanity.

Why is it integral to your identity?

Through "ethnocentrism" we become and remain more Jewish and the more Jewish we are thereby the more human we are.

How does being more Jewish make you more human?

[julrich]

"You essentially removed any distinction between Christians and anyone else."
    only the invidious distinctions.

jules

[julrich]

Akiva,

At the end of his 13 principles of faith Maimonides says that you have to believe these things to enter into Israel.  Perhaps modern intellectual freedom has changed the perspective of most jews on the authority of creedal faith upon the individual, but there are lots of orthodox jews who still agree with him.

[VLinvictus]

So the idea that Judaism is not based upon beliefs is false.

No. Conversion to Judaism is based upon your beliefs about the contract you're signing on to. Jewish identity, once it is achieved by birth or conversion is not dependent on beliefs.

[VLinvictus]

Why is it integral to your identity?

Because the definition of any given thing is the sum total of its relations with every other thing. IOW, context is everything and it is impossible to understand any thing external to its context. Outside of its network of defining relations, a thing cannot be properly said to exist. Thus, everyone's national and cultural background is integral to his or her identity. If you, for example, were not Hispanic but instead, say, Norwegian, you would not be "you." Thus, Jewishness for Jews is integral to our identities similar to how Irishness is integral to the Irish, Japaneseness is integral to the Japanese, Mexicanness is integral to the Mexicans, and so forth. Take a Jew, an Irishman, a Japanese, or a Mexican and remove the relation of the national/ethnic/cultural background and you will have a completely different person.

How does being more Jewish make you more human?

I explained that. The universal can only be understood through the particular. It is only through the understanding and appreciation of what makes us different in terms of culture and nationality and such that we can appreciate what makes us the same in terms of humanity. One must go through the particular to arrive at the universal and each culture's and people's group expression is the product of their historic attempts to define and express their identities as humans. The particular is the gateway and reference point to the universal. Because everything is interconnected, culture and peoplehood is connected to humanity and is the avenue through which we approach humanity. The more one actualizes one's unique and particular identity as a member of a people, the more one actualizes one's identity as a human.

[VLinvictus]

At the end of his 13 principles of faith Maimonides says that you have to believe these things to enter into Israel.  Perhaps modern intellectual freedom has changed the perspective of most jews on the authority of creedal faith upon the individual, but there are lots of orthodox jews who still agree with him.

That's not quite accurate. The Rambam was of the opinion that adherence to his 13 principles was necessary to enter into the World To Come. According to his strict opinion, denying any one of these principles made one a heretic but a heretic is still a Jew. It's worth noting that he himself did not actually believe all of his 13 principles the way he formulated them (especially WRT to the resurrection of the dead).

There are indeed many Orthodox Jews who have adopted Rambam's list as a kind of creed and I have heard of converts being required to accept the 13 principles as a condition of conversion -- but that is more about believing in the terms of the contract one is signing on to. Nevertheless, Jews who do not believe in all of the Rambam's principles are still Jews -- indeed, Rabbi Marc Shapiro wrote a fascinating book called The Limits of Orthodox Theology that shows how many of the greatest figures in rabbinic tradition did not subscribe to one or more of the principles yet no one questions their Orthodoxy (Maimonides himself is at the top of the list).

[Akiva]

VL is right.  And if he gets to be tired of Einstein and Spinoza being end-alls, I get to be tired of the Rambam doing the same.  Invaluable though his contributions to Judaism are, Rambam does not serve as the end-all in Jewish debate.  Two and a half millennia of Jewish thought is not summed up by these 13 principles, and neither is Torah. 

[sobeit9]

Since you deny Plato, I simply ask you to add the Christian perspective to VL's post.  I actually challenge you to do it.  This is not ad hom. You deny the substance so I ask you to post it in your own words.  I don't think you can do it.

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

As I said, you don't understand the other side so prefer to deny it. Seems familiar.

[Clyde5001]

I think he understands quite well.