Can Jews be Christian?

[Acumen]

I know this is a hot-button topic for Jews, so here it is.  During the infant stages of Christianity, certain Jews accepted Jesus as their savior -- meaning this man suffered, died, and resurrected for their benefit.  However, today the term seems to be an oxymoron.  Many Jews refuse to recognize other Jews as Jewish if they accept the Christian way of life.  Why?

-Acumen

[metis]

I know this is a hot-button topic for Jews, so here it is.  During the infant stages of Christianity, certain Jews accepted Jesus as their savior -- meaning this man suffered, died, and resurrected for their benefit.  However, today the term seems to be an oxymoron.  Many Jews refuse to recognize other Jews as Jewish if they accept the Christian way of life.  Why?

-Acumen

 According to halacha (Jewish Law), one is a Jew if one is borne of a Jewish mother (Reform also accepts patrilineal descent) or if one converts and is accepted by a bet din (normally three rabbis, two of which the potential convert cannot know).  It makes no difference where a Jew hangs his hat in regards to being Jewish according to halacha.

Shalom,
Vern

[Acumen]

Vern,

According to halacha (Jewish Law), one is a Jew if one is borne of a Jewish mother (Reform also accepts patrilineal descent) or if one converts and is accepted by a bet din (normally three rabbis, two of which the potential convert cannot know).  It makes no difference where a Jew hangs his hat in regards to being Jewish according to halacha.

So if someone converted to a Jew by the method of three rabbis, and later accepts Jesus as their savior, then that person is still a Jew?

[metis]

So if someone converted to a Jew by the method of three rabbis, and later accepts Jesus as their savior, then that person is still a Jew?

Yep.  But what he/she decides to call themselves is obviously up to them.  Halacha is not binding on belief.

Shalom,
Vern

[Acumen]

Vern,

Then what is the problem that some Jews have with the Messianic Jews?

[Howiedds]

Vern has given an "official" reply, but Acumen knows better from his experience with this question on other forums. Vern is technically correct in that a born Jew, a convert to Judaism, and  their children will always be Jewish by the strict definition offered above.

So if someone converted to a Jew by the method of three rabbis, and later accepts Jesus as their savior, then that person is still a Jew?

Practically speaking, he will be excluded from the Jewish community when he does that. He may claim to be Jewish based on the above standard, but by his choices, he will place himself so far outside the community of belief and practice that he will, in effect, not be recognized as Jewish by his fellows.

During the infant stages of Christianity, certain Jews accepted Jesus as their savior -- meaning this man suffered, died, and resurrected for their benefit.

I would agree with the first part of the above (During the infant stages of Christianity, certain Jews accepted Jesus as their savior , or at least their messiah). I am not sure that their acceptance of Jesus as their messiah also entailed everything that the church interpreted about his death and resurrection, i.e. for their benefit.
But setting that aside for the moment, the example of the earliest Jesus people as also being Jews is often used by Messianic Jews as a historical example of the possibility of of both accepting Jesus as a messiah and being a Jew.

And I believe they have a point, but they are overlooking the 2,000 year old history between us, which is the answer to your

However, today the term seems to be an oxymoron.  Many Jews refuse to recognize other Jews as Jewish if they accept the Christian way of life.  Why?

That is, it is the contentious history that we have shared which makes the Jew who becomes a Christian so unacceptable to the Jewish community. Now I may be alone in asserting that as the reason, but those who disagree with me are wrong. .

Seriously, the religious argument has never made any sense to me. Christianity is not idolatry. Even our greatest medieval thinker, Maimonides, recognized that Christianity brings many closer to the repair of the world so important to Jews and the same God than if Christianity did not exist. In addition, atheists are not shown the same disapproval as Jews who become Christian, people who believe in God but think Jesus is the messiah. 

So what's going on? I think it's because Jews who become Christian have joined the perennial "other" of the Jewish people. Whether you think our enemies in western history, our persecutors, those that caused such death and destruction were truly Christian or not (and you know that you and I agree that they were not living the Christian message), the Jewish perception is that Christianity was the source of our disastrous European experience. The Jews who have become Christian have joined our persecutors;the atheist, the wiccan, the non-theist, has not.

what is the problem that some Jews have with the Messianic Jews?

There may be some added complaints about them, beyond the distaste for Jews who become Christian. Unfortunately for messianics, the most prominent group about which Jews know are the "Jews for Jesus," that even other messianics eschew. They are a proselytizing group which has as its objective the conversion of Jews to Christianity by active solicitation in ways that mainstream Christian groups would not do. Such phrases as "completed Jews" and "I found it" are irksome as are their approach to our children and uneducated, masquerading as Jews.

Some Jews also are upset by the co-opting of the name "Jew" in their title of Messianic Jew, especially when so many Messianics are not Jewish by the standards mentioned earlier in the post.

[metis]

Thanks there Howie. 

Shalom,
Vern

[Acumen]

Howie,

I would agree with the first part of the above (During the infant stages of Christianity, certain Jews accepted Jesus as their savior , or at least their messiah). I am not sure that their acceptance of Jesus as their messiah also entailed everything that the church interpreted about his death and resurrection, i.e. for their benefit.

I think that depends upon what you mean by "the church."  I don't accept everything the Catholic church interpreted because they've taken the liberty to add their philosophical speculations to scriptural doctrine and then stamped their speculations with the infallibility of the Holy Spirit as to repel any challenges.

There may be some added complaints about them, beyond the distaste for Jews who become Christian. Unfortunately for messianics, the most prominent group about which Jews know are the "Jews for Jesus," that even other messianics eschew. They are a proselytizing group which has as its objective the conversion of Jews to Christianity by active solicitation in ways that mainstream Christian groups would not do. Such phrases as "completed Jews" and "I found it" are irksome as are their approach to our children and uneducated, masquerading as Jews.

If these Jews for Jesus stopped using descriptive language like "completed Jew," but they continued to target Jews for proselytization, would there still be a tension between them and Jews?

Some Jews also are upset by the co-opting of the name "Jew" in their title of Messianic Jew, especially when so many Messianics are not Jewish by the standards mentioned earlier in the post.

Okay, but Judaism doesn't really take a stance on issues of doctrine.  Time and time again, I've been reminded that Judaism is a religion about action, not belief.  If Judaism has no core beliefs, then it would appear that anyone who concerns themselves with following the meat of the law is really no different than a Jew.  You state that much of the tension is based upon historical events that have left a scar on the Jewish people as a reminder of the things that once occurred, but doesn't their resistence to the Messianic Jews speak to the fact that they do in some respects accept that there are certain beliefs one is not supposed to have?

-Acumen

[metis]

Okay, but Judaism doesn't really take a stance on issues of doctrine.  Time and time again, I've been reminded that Judaism is a religion about action, not belief.  If Judaism has no core beliefs, then it would appear that anyone who concerns themselves with following the meat of the law is really no different than a Jew.  You state that much of the tension is based upon historical events that have left a scar on the Jewish people as a reminder of the things that once occurred, but doesn't their resistence to the Messianic Jews speak to the fact that they do in some respects accept that there are certain beliefs one is not supposed to have?

Judaism takes many stances on doctrine through what may be called a commentary system.  Instead of adopting creeds, such as what we find with most Christian groups, our sages wrote commentaries that frequently disagree with other Jewish sages, such as Hillel and Shammai, who's camps actually at least once had a physical confrontation.  These commentaries have not been edited out or banned, but are part of this system, and individual Jews may tend to gravitate more towards one school of thought or another.  So there very much is "belief" built into the system even though it's handled differently that how most Christians would deal with it. 

All philosophical/theological systems must start somewhere, and ours is obviously is based on Torah, which indeed spends more time talking about action than belief.  But it's the belief in G-d that is the foundation for the teachings and subsequent actions. 

In regards to the MJ's, the belief amongst most Jews is that Jesus was not the messiah since he did not fulfill the messianic prophecies (you can see a list of those prophecies at Judaism 101).  Therefore, a Jew that believes Jesus was or is the messiah is countering what is to be found in Torah from the normative Jewish perspective.  But yet they're still Jewish.

And if one believes that Jesus was the messiah, there's another name in our language for them-- "Christians".  And like with our sages over the centuries, they obviously differ with their interpretations versus normative Judaism.  But "normative Judaism" was hardly monolithic.  Therefore, one might argue that these Jews are merely taking another viewpoint amongst many in our history, and that would be correct. 

So are they Jews?  Of course.  Do they follow Judaism?  To a certain extend, I think yes.  But the eventual inclusion of the word "Christianity", which is found in the book of Acts, puts them in a different category.  It's quite clear that in early church history, they chose to differentiate themselves from the other groups.  For example, they often referred to themselves as "the way". 

I personally have no animosity towards MJ's, but there are some Jews who do.  Some Christians have reacted much the same way when someone leaves their flock, so I guess this is to be expected. 

Shalom,
Vern       

[Acumen]

You guys are no fun.   

Personally, if a Jewish convert believes that Jesus is the messiah and follows the Christian way, but still prefers the self-description of a Jew, I would begin to wonder if the person had his heart in Christianity.

[metis]

You guys are no fun.   

I've been told that before!

Personally, if a Jewish convert believes that Jesus is the messiah and follows the Christian way, but still prefers the self-description of a Jew, I would begin to wonder if the person had his heart in Christianity.

You may have a point.  It seems to run against the implication of Paul's teaching of inclusion and equality.



Shalom,
Vern

[metis]

Hey Howie, my picture is far better looking than yours! 

Shalom,
Vern

[Acumen]

It seems to run against the implication of Paul's teaching of inclusion and equality.

Why?

[metis]

Why?

A reason is that if "all are equal in the eyes of God", then there's little reason to emphasize one's Jewishness.

Shalom,
Vern

[Acumen]

Where does Paul say we are all equal in the eyes of God?

[metis]

 

[1Cor.12[13] For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Gal.3[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

[Howiedds]

Howie said:
I would agree with the first part of the above (During the infant stages of Christianity, certain Jews accepted Jesus as their savior , or at least their messiah). I am not sure that their acceptance of Jesus as their messiah also entailed everything that the church interpreted about his death and resurrection, i.e. for their benefit.

Acumen responded:
I think that depends upon what you mean by "the church."  I don't accept everything the Catholic church interpreted because they've taken the liberty to add their philosophical speculations to scriptural doctrine and then stamped their speculations with the infallibility of the Holy Spirit as to repel any challenges.

That might be a little too "inside baseball" for us Jews. The average Jew knows little of the distinctions between Catholics, Protestants, and denominations within Protestants. My point was that as a student of the early church, I agree with you that the earliest members were Jews who were both Jewish in every regard and accepted that the man they had come to know was sent by God, a Messiah. I'm just not sure how much they agreed with the church that developed over the centuries a more specific understanding of "messiah" in the history of salvation.  But your point, as understand it, is well taken. And Messianics today point to that duality in the early church of Jew and Christian as an example of how and why they can be both.

If these Jews for Jesus stopped using descriptive language like "completed Jew," but they continued to target Jews for proselytization, would there still be a tension between them and Jews?

Yes, just as there is a tension between Jews and Baptists who periodically come out with crusades to convert Jews.

... but Judaism doesn't really take a stance on issues of doctrine.  Time and time again, I've been reminded that Judaism is a religion about action, not belief. 

Right, but don't take it to the bank. It's a way of describing an emphasis. To say the Judaism is orthoprax (right practice) and Christianity is orthodox (right doctrine) should not ignore that Jews have beliefs/doctrines and that Christianity's doctrines produce a practice.

If Judaism has no core beliefs,

That sounds too definitive and final to my ears. Most Jews would protest that we do have core beliefs but that the practice they generate is what's emphasized. A core belief would be that we are made in the spiritual image of God. The practice generated by that belief would be to live lives of justice, mercy, and compassion for all human beings because they are made in God's image and have inestimable value. Having such value would produce the response of being responsible for each: clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, protecting the vulnerable, and spending 5 dollars for mosquito netting to prevent malaria from killing thousands of children.

then it would appear that anyone who concerns themselves with following the meat of the law is really no different than a Jew. 

I would say that anyone who follows the intent of the teachings, which is to produce a righteous society in which every human being is valued as a child of God, is no different in the "eyes" of God than a Jew.

But that may not be what you meant. There is the other half of Jewishness which is peoplehood, familial connection, ethnicity. This is where the definition, or better my attempt at explaining who is a Jew, gets dicey, because there is no comparable peoplehood connection in Christianity. From its inception, Christianity was supra-national, devoid of ethnicity and its trappings: language, dress, diet, geography.

You state that much of the tension is based upon historical events that have left a scar on the Jewish people as a reminder of the things that once occurred,

Yes. I personally would hope that you would ignore all the other reasons you will hear from others as to what is really behind our discomfort with Jews who are Messianics or who have converted to other Christian denominations. The only explanation that makes sense to me is the contentious history brought to mind when we hear, "I am a Jew but I believe that Jesus is the messiah/divine/God." They have joined "the other" and produce a reaction that born Christians do not engender. 

but doesn't their resistence to the Messianic Jews speak to the fact that they do in some respects accept that there are certain beliefs one is not supposed to have?

Yes, but not "some people," only people who were once Jewish should not have them. And why shouldn't they have them? Is it because it is not a Jewish belief? No. Atheism is not a Jewish belief either, but we don't have the same reaction when our Jewish friends claim to be atheists, or when Vern says he is a "non-theist," or when a Jew dabbles in Buddhism. The key here is "Jesus." I don't mean the guy himself, only what he has come to represent vis-a-vis the European Jewish experience.

[Howiedds]

a
Acumen, metis:

So are they Jews?  Of course.  Do they follow Judaism?  To a certain extend, I think yes.  But the eventual inclusion of the word "Christianity", which is found in the book of Acts, puts them in a different category.  It's quite clear that in early church history, they chose to differentiate themselves from the other groups.  For example, they often referred to themselves as "the way".

I personally have no animosity towards MJ's, but there are some Jews who do.  Some Christians have reacted much the same way when someone leaves their flock, so I guess this is to be expected.

I would only add that in metis and I you are dealing with a different kind of Jew vis-a-vis the messianics than you are going to find generally. (He's not as special as I am, but he is an acquired a taste.)

The messianic moderator, Ufie, on the other site, inspired me to give a class on messianic Judaism in an adult education setting in my synagogue. I attended a couple of services at their "synagogues" in disguise, of course (raincoat with collar up, hat, a wig, etc.), picked a few brains online and in person. My talk at my synagogue was a tad to favorable for most in the audience. I knew it would be and relished the shock I would generate, and I was not disappointed. It was the most contentious talk I ever gave. The level of disagreement could not be accounted for by the ordinary differences in religious beliefs, co-opting names, or proselytizing practices. Those were all raised, of course, but I knew that the emotion was generated by what a belief in Jesus by born Jews represented to my fellow congregants. I am still scrubbing the tar and feathers off my back.

[Howiedds]

Acumen:

You guys are no fun. 

You forgot how much "fun" the other site was.

Personally, if a Jewish convert believes that Jesus is the messiah and follows the Christian way, but still prefers the self-description of a Jew, I would begin to wonder if the person had his heart in Christianity.

And we look at the corollary. if a Jewish convert believes that Jesus is the messiah and follows the Christian way, we question whether or not he should be included in the Jewish community.

[Acumen]

Vern,

[1Cor.12[13] For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Gal.3[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Okay, I see what you're saying now.  Keep in mind that unity is not the same as equality.