Atheist Jew II

[Acumen]

Sanh. 10:1    

   A.   All Israelites have a share in the world to come,

   B.   as it is said, Your people also shall be all righteous, they shall inherit the land forever; the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified (Is. 60:21).

   C.   And these are the ones who have no portion in the world to come:

   D.   (1) He who says, the resurrection of the dead is a teaching which does not derive from the Torah, (2) and the Torah does not come from Heaven; and (3) an Epicurean.

   E.   R. Aqiba says, “Also: He who reads in heretical books,

   F.   “and he who whispers over a wound and says, I will put none of the diseases upon you which I have put on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord who heals you (Ex. 15:26).”

   G.   Abba Saul says, “Also: he who pronounces the divine Name as it is spelled out.”

If the atheist Jew believes that the torah didn't come from Heaven, will he have no share in Olam Haba?

-Acumen

[metis]

If my memory is correct, the Talmud even states that if one doesn't believe in heaven, which many Jews question the existence of, they will be ineligible to go there.

Do I worry about it?  No.  But then I'm not really an atheist, although that somewhat depends on how one defines the term.  There's a difference between questioning whether there are deities, which I prefer to call "agnosticism" or "non-theism", versus categorically believing there aren't any.  I fall into the first camp.

Shalom,
Vern 

[Acumen]

Vern,

I read this tidbit on a blog, and I was wondering if this challenges the very concept that God is okay with atheist Jews as long as they follow the law.  I'm very curious to see what Howie thinks of this.   

[metis]

I read this tidbit on a blog, and I was wondering if this challenges the very concept that God is okay with atheist Jews as long as they follow the law.  I'm very curious to see what Howie thinks of this.   

Most of the commentaries I've seen agree that it's the following of the Law that's most important, and that one can have doubts about the existence of God.  However, I've never seen it put in terms of a belief there is no God.  IOW, can a "devout" atheist, who insists there is no God, even if he/she follows the Law, possibly be eligible for heaven? 

I don't know the answer to that question put in those terms, but I have my doubts that orthodox Jews would feel that they would.  I'll also be interested in Howie's response as well, so if I don't see a response from him by tomorrow afternoon, I'll e-mail him.

Shalom,
Vern

[Acumen]

Yeah, he hasn't been posting that much, perhaps we should find a topic near and dear to his heart?

[metis]

Yeah, he hasn't been posting that much, perhaps we should find a topic near and dear to his heart?

How about food!  That's near and dear to almost everyone, and are you aware of the fact that he's the owner of the restaurant in Dallas called Howie's Famous Kosher Cheeseburgers?   

[metis]

Acumen, Howie just told me he'll be here to check it out tomorrow.  Ya, I realize that you guys still hafta work, but "I feel your pain".   

Shalom & I'll probably see ya then as well,
Vern

[Acumen]

Vern,

I work tomorrow as well.  You won't see me on the boards until at least 5:00 pm.  And even then, I probably won't be on long because I work a 24 hour shift.

[Howiedds]

Ok, I'm back. Things get hectic when folks realize the year is ending, and there's still some of their yearly maximum unused on their insurance for those kosher cheeseburgers.

As for the quotes from the blog, I may not be much help because I am bit unorthodox, often, riddled with doubts.
   A.   All Israelites have a share in the world to come,

OK

  B.   as it is said, Your people also shall be all righteous, they shall inherit the land forever; the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified (Is. 60:21).

Isaiah at the end of his book is speaking about the well being and flourishing of the restored community after the Babylonian Exile.

  C.   And these are the ones who have no portion in the world to come:

   D.   (1) He who says, the resurrection of the dead is a teaching which does not derive from the Torah, (2) and the Torah does not come from Heaven; and (3) an Epicurean.

Maimonides (1200 CE)  made belief in the resurrection of the dead one of his 13 articles of faith that became the Orthodox "list" that many would point to as the closest thing that Jews have to a creed of belief.

  E.   R. Aqiba says, “Also: He who reads in heretical books,

Everybody has an opinion.


   F.   “and he who whispers over a wound and says, I will put none of the diseases upon you which I have put on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord who heals you (Ex. 15:26).”

This one confused me as to why it was included:

and He said: 'If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in His eyes, and wilt give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases upon thee, which I have put upon the Egyptians; for I am the Lord that healeth thee

By accepting God's teachings and the obligations they entailed, by not rebelling against God's will as the Egyptians had done, the people would be spared the afflictions that befell the Egyptians.

I am not sure what it's doing here.

   G.   Abba Saul says, “Also: he who pronounces the divine Name as it is spelled out.”

I take that one seriously, but I have to admit, it's more of a superstition with me.

Vern:
Most of the commentaries I've seen agree that it's the following of the Law that's most important, and that one can have doubts about the existence of God.

Vern and I agree on the primacy of living righteously and also the doubts about the existence of God. I think he just speaks about his personal beliefs in that area, his non-theism, more than I do. There is so much of that in my community and my family that I just don't like owning up to those doubts. I have them, but I keep them to myself unless my kids flat out ask me.

I offer prayers of thanksgiving all the time. I don't want to put whammy on things, (see that superstition again), but some would look at some of the events in my early life, my teenage years, and would not have predicted that I would be who I am and where I'd be. I am very well aware of how different things could have been, and I am always grateful when I look back: health, family, a little bit more money than month.  So I offer prayers of thanksgiving to a God who I sometimes doubt that I know anything about. If that sounds messy, that's the reason I only share it here among my two friends, Vern and Acumen. Nobody else will read this, right?

However, I've never seen it put in terms of a belief there is no God.  IOW, can a "devout" atheist, who insists there is no God, even if he/she follows the Law, possibly be eligible for heaven?

I never see it in those terms either.

I have my doubts that orthodox Jews would feel that they would.

Who knows what goes on between the ears of anyone, their own private thoughts, really. I pray in their presence all the time and am close to some Orthodox rabbis. They seem to harbor no doubts. I would like their apparent certainty to rub off on me, but it hasn't so far.

Now wasn't that a big help. Kosher cheeseburgers though, now there I can really give advice.

[metis]

Actually, Howie, you were a big help as far as I'm concerned, but then, what do I know?  Maybe, if you get a chance this weekend, you could ask an Orthodox rabbi as to whether they believe a Law "abiding" atheist may be able to make it into heaven?  I gotta feeling I know what the answer will be.   

Shalom,
Vern 

[julrich]

seems to me the citations are about what a jew says or pronounces rather than what he might privately or passively believe.  Atheist dawson calls for a "militant atheism."  He wants outspoken activist opposition to the belief in the existence of god, more of which we're seeing today.  That's what would seem to be beyond the hedge of these instructions.     

Actually I'm in favor of what Dawson calls for.  I think religious traditions have benefitted unduly from the polite deference they recieve in a world where religious abuses abound.  But serious faithful commitment has probably been harmed by so much tiptoeing around our grandmother's indefensible ideas.  some serious boat rocking is just what our major traditions need to get people rethinking their old baggage.  I think we become responsible for the likely misuse of popular ideas we uncritically accept.  Faith that isn't tested by challenge is likely to be a weak or flawed faith.  We're better off if we test our convictions with our own misgivings and doubts as well as the disagreeable ideas of others.  Perhaps judaism includes intellectual disbelief as part of its dialectical approach to truth.  Christians and Muslims should envy that strenuous path of faith.

shalom
big julie

[river]

Hi Big Julie,

How are you doing?  Long time, no hear.  I have no idea how this forum works.  But I came over to say hello.

PS  I eat about anything I like. 

[Acumen]

I have no idea how this forum works.  But I came over to say hello.

Beliefcorner is a quaint, easy to use forum with some features that Bnet doesn't have like convenient personal messaging, longer post modification windows, lengthier post capabilities, and of course, no drive-by or nutty posters.

Over here, the ad hominem is stressed more and kept to a minimum, although we've had some from time to time.

Another interesting feature at the bottom of the forum page is the capability of seeing what other posters are doing.  If you click on the guests and users, it will show you what posters are doing, which is really cool. 

Also, the administrators are cool, and promote the idea of members writing articles for the front page.  Already, posters like Vern, Howie, Gluadys, Thorolf, and others have published articles, which are now in the archives.  So if you're interested in publishing an article, email Superman.

Hope you enjoy your stay.     

[julrich]

Hiya Riv!

Yeah, I been missin all this online yaking.  I'm so busy doin stuff I guess I haven't had time to just talk about it.  I've got an afterschool program up and running and it's fun, but time consuming.  I've been going through hard times with my youngest son's schizophrenia.  My prison teaching is still lots of fun.  I stay pretty active in congregational stuff.  I'm chair of the council and a trustee.  I just left bnet when fox took over.  

I'm reading Neusner's Emergence of Judaism, Young's Meet the Rabbis, and papers from a symposium on Jews and Christians: the parting of the ways.  My middle son's getting married in the fall.  I'm planting flowers right now for it.

How's by you?

big julie

[Acumen]

Jules,

If you want to publish an article on the front page, email superman

[agricola]

I thought that bit about people who recite those verses over the sick, etc - I thought that was a slam against using superstition and 'magic' instead of actual medical treatment - i.e., people who think prayer heals sickness, instead of medicine - turning God into a candy machine: put the right words in, out comes a prize.

[julrich]

believing in a god of blessing is a little more sophisticated than worshipping a candy machine.  I told some people about my schizophrenic son today and they spontaneously laid their hands on me and spoke my son's name to god, petitioning for his return to our family and for his healing.  this was not an expectation of a miracle, but a shared hope for blessings that may or may not be mere accidents of fate, regardless of our faith.  This does not mean that uttering our deeply felt needs to whatever god is there is some kind of whammy.  It's not a device, like a way to get a new copier for the congregation. I'm not praying that I don't lose any more crowns now that I don't have dental insurance.  And it's not an alternative to natural measures ala christian science.  It's just a slightly more meaningful way of crying out than kicking the dirt.  Even agnostics should be able to vent this way.  Atheists on the other hand would seemingly have a problem contradicting their own views if they felt a need to call upon god.

shalom
big julie

[river]

Big Julie,

 I didn't know about your son's problem.  It must be difficult for you and for him, and I'm very sorry any child has such problems.  One of my grandsons has a form of autism.  It's not full blown, as he does interact with others, so it's not being totally diagnosed as autism now, though it was in the beginning.  He still has some of the symptoms, and his mom has 2 other children, which makes things pretty hard for her. I have a picture of him on my photo album at the other forum.  Just put it on. In some things, because of his parents early intervention, he's getting better.  He's 4 now, and still has difficulty with communication, especially speech.  Also there's a difficult eating problem.  He's such a beautiful child too.  We can only hope for the best. 

I thought maybe you were visiting Baltimore this spring, and we were to meet in Camden Yards, but it sounds like you're very busy, and I have a torn something or other in my knee, and am having surgery this Tuesday, so I can walk without pain and go back to the games!  And I don't even play baseball.   Well, at least until last night, the O's were in first place! 

Have a good day.   riv

[julrich]

yeah, our son was a candidated for asberger's syndrome, mild autism.   Then he went through traumas and this hell.  The drugs have worked wonders except for side effects, but anything is better than terror. 

sorry bout your knee.  get it fixed if possible.  life should become normal someday.  I'm retired for pete's sakes!  still interested in meeting you.  I saw clyde here the other day.

later.

big julie

[Akiva]

What is heaven, what is Torah, what is Olam Haba?