Jews on Hell

[Acumen]

The Christian conception of hell is a place of eternal punishment for the wicked.  In the NT, it is described in the gospels, in the Pauline epistles, and most descriptively in the book of Revelations.  However, in the OT, the doctrine of hell isn't as developed as it is in the NT.  From past debates with Jews and Jewish converts, I've learned that Judaism doesn't espouse a vew of hell as a place of eternal punishment.  Gehinnom is a place of temporal purging, much like the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory.  Maximum sentence for Gehinnom, I believe, is 12 months.  When the evil is purged from the soul, then what's left moves on to Olam Haba.

So my question is this, how do Jews explain the passage in Dan 12:2

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."


According to Dan 12:2, the punishment of hell appears a lot longer than 12 months.  What is Judaism's position on this?

-Acumen

[metis]

What is Judaism's position on this?

Both of the quotes below come from Judaism 101:

"Hell:  The place of spiritual punishment and/or purification for the wicked dead in Judaism is not referred to as Hell, but as Gehinnom or She'ol. According to most sources, the period of punishment or purification is limited to 12 months, after which the soul ascends to Olam Ha-Ba or is destroyed (if it is utterly wicked)."

and

"Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist."

Shalom,
Vern

[Acumen]

Vern,

How do religious Jews treat the passage from Daniel?  And from what scriptural basis do they establish the idea of a temporal place of purging called Gehinnom?

[metis]

How do religious Jews treat the passage from Daniel?  And from what scriptural basis do they establish the idea of a temporal place of purging called Gehinnom?

It's important that we not build a theology around a single reference, especially since that reference to what might be considered "hell" has another potential interpretation, which might be to "sheol".  The reference to Gehinnom, which I've actually seen in person btw, is rather dubious as any kind of reference to "hell" especially since there's no other verses to compare it to. 

Overall, you'll find most Jews, including the orthodox, to be quite vague in this area because of the scantiness of references and also the feeling that this is God's domain and He'll do the judging.  One of our greatest sages, Moshe Maimonides (the RAMBAM), taught that we should not be thinking of heaven or we may just be inclined to do good just to get there, wish is selfishness.  Instead, he believed we should appreciate creation and be completely respectful towards it.

Shalom,
Vern

[Acumen]

Vern,

Acumen:  How do religious Jews treat the passage from Daniel?  And from what scriptural basis do they establish the idea of a temporal place of purging called Gehinnom?

Vern:  It's important that we not build a theology around a single reference, especially since that reference to what might be considered "hell" has another potential interpretation, which might be to "sheol".  The reference to Gehinnom, which I've actually seen in person btw, is rather dubious as any kind of reference to "hell" especially since there's no other verses to compare it to. 

Right, but shouldn't we at least deal with the passage, since it's there.  The author of Daniel apparently thought there was a good reason to mention that the resurrection of the dead included two types of experience, one of everlasting life and one of everlasting contempt.  The notion of everlasting life is addressed by the Jewish doctrine of Olam Haba, and therefore needs no further attention.  The notion of everlasting contempt, from what I've seen, hasn't been addressed by the Jewish doctrine of Gehinnom, which is described as temporal, not everlasting.

Overall, you'll find most Jews, including the orthodox, to be quite vague in this area because of the scantiness of references and also the feeling that this is God's domain and He'll do the judging.  

And if that's the case, then I will gladly accept that answer.  However, if they have an explanation, I would prefer to hear it.

-Acumen

[metis]

And if that's the case, then I will gladly accept that answer.  However, if they have an explanation, I would prefer to hear it.

There may be a hundred explanations.  I believe you may be at least vaguely familiar with what may be called a "commentary system" that Judaism has used now for around 2,500 years.  Instead of having official translations and/or creeds, we have a massive accumulation of commentaries written over that span in time, whereas a particular verse or verses may have many differing interpretations.  Therefore, when one asks for the "Jewish interpretation", it's often an impossible question to answer unless we speak in broad generalities (btw, the most written about commentary dealing with a single verse is "...and God hardened Pharaoh's heart" as found in Exodus-- that verse is rather disturbing if one contemplates its implications). 

The more controversial or vague the item that's in question is, the more commentaries you tend to have on it.  In the case of what you posted from Daniel, I gotta feeling there's probably quite a few differing thoughts on this as the Judaism 101 citation that I quoted indicated.  Talmudic scholars pour over things like these to try to squeeze the most out of them, but I'm far from being a Talmudic scholar.

Shalom,
Vern

[julrich]

Daniel isn't in the jewish Bible as one of the prophets.  The later writings include a broad range of literature with different themes and ideas.  I think the rabbis show the most deference to Torah, then to the major prophets, then lesser prophets, and least of all to the writings.  ideas of heaven, resurrection, and punishment after life develop in post-exilic judaism and have the least foundation in the sacred literature.  Daniel may be the earliest clear statement of the resurrection in the Bible.  His apocalyptic notion of a final collective resurrection of all the dead to meet judgement for admission to the everlasting kingdom is quite different from the more hellenized belief in an alternative place of everlasting consignment for the damned when they die.

shalom
big julie

[metis]

First of all, nice post big julie and what you posted is what I've run across as well.  Let me just add one thing in that there are some historians who believe that us Jews may have "borrowed" many of the general ideas of an afterlife from the Greeks, whom had a powerful influence in the entire Mediterranean area.

Shalom,
Vern   

[Acumen]

Vern,

There may be a hundred explanations.  I believe you may be at least vaguely familiar with what may be called a "commentary system" that Judaism has used now for around 2,500 years.  

Do any of these "hundred explanations" refer to hell as a place of everlasting punishment?     Because that's how Christians intepret it.

Therefore, when one asks for the "Jewish interpretation", it's often an impossible question to answer unless we speak in broad generalities


Out of the many different interpretations of this text, is there one that agrees with the Christian perspective?

-Acumen

[metis]

Do any of these "hundred explanations" refer to hell as a place of everlasting punishment?     Because that's how Christians intepret it.

That's a good question that I cannot answer, but I'll see what I can find maybe later today.  Howie may be a good help in this area.  I know it's not what most sages came to believe was most likely, but I don't know if any of the commentaries got close to the Christian belief.  Sometimes there's folklore that may be believed by many people even if most sages didn't necessarily believed as such. 

I'll see what I can find anything on this, I'll let you know.

Shalom,
Vern 

[metis]

I found this:

"Heaven & Hell 1
In Jewish thought, Heaven-Paradise-Gan Eden is seen as a place/state where one experiences oneself devoid of ego, aggression, and resentment--the purity of the transcendence. Conversely, hell is viewed as a place/state where one experiences the tension of knowing the need to relinquish the tenacious bound with the ego, yet all the while holding on to the status quo and not giving it up. Hell is where a soul that has become entrenched and immersed in materialistic gain and pleasure, experiences the pain of ripping away, ultimately so that it, too, can experience the pleasure of basking in Infinite's light.

The future is seen as progression of the present. The so-called afterlife is life sans the body and its preoccupation with perpetuating its existence. The question, "what will become of us," is an extension of the existentialist question: who are we. Everything that exists here exists there in the afterlife, only there it is in an infinite matter. As a wise man once said, "The punishment in hell is that you have for eternity that which you thought you wanted on earth." If one caused illusionary pleasures in this lifetime, he will continue to do so in the afterlife.

A Chassidic tale tells of a wealthy miser who dies and is immediately ushered into a majestic looking palace filed with gold and silver. The angels, who accompany him, inform him that this is his place for eternity. Whatever his heart desire he gets. One day he desires a perfect spouse, and the spouse materializes, the next day he desires white horses with a golden carriage and that, too, materializes. Each day he conjures up another fantasy and each day they immediately materialize. Slowly he beings to run out of things to ask, what's worse he begins to become bored with his lot. One day he asks the supervising angel if could get a look at the other side, if he can see what is going on in hell. Blankly the angel looks at this poor man and tells him that he is standing right in the middle of hell.

Yet, Judaism does not believe in "eternal condemnation." Hell, for lack of a better word, is not a permanent condition, and no soul becomes permanently trapped in that state; rather, it is a learning station, a process in which a soul eventually graduates.

When a human being passes on and leaves the physical body, he or she assumes a non-corporeal essence, which consists of their emotions and thoughts. Commensurate to their level of integration during their lifetime is their astral body. The fate of a person who has lived a disharmonies and disaligned life has come to be know as Gehenom-hell. Understandably, hell is not a place somewhere up there, or down below; rather, hell is a state where the soul is not yet able to reach heaven. It is where the soul, operating in a disunited and disingenuous manner, is unable to receive the light of G-d and is thus blinded. Consequently, in the place of beholding the light and basking in its majestic splendor, the soul feels in complete disarray.

Heaven is where the soul is aware of its Oneness with its Source; hell is where the soul experiences a distance and alienation from this unity. The Zohar teaches "When a soul is about to leave this earthly realm, the Shechinah appears itself, and the soul goes out in joy and love to meet the Shechinah. If the soul is meritorious, then the soul cleaves onto the Shechinah; if not, the Shechinah departs, and the soul is left alone."

The word for hell in Hebrew is Gehenom, which stems from the word Gai Henom (the valley of Henom). In biblical times, just outside Jerusalem, there was this valley where pagan Canaanites offered human sacrifice. Later on during King David's rule, these alters were destroyed, and soon afterwards, it became a dumping ground where waste was burned. It is thus biblically used as a metaphor for a place were the soul cleanses itself.

Classic Jewish sources speak of a cleansing of fire and purification through ice. Fire fights fire and ice erases coldness. Clearly, these are metaphors; there is no fire or ice in a world unrelated to the physical. Fire represents passion; ice indifference. In the journey through life one can opt to either be passionate for the spiritual or the material, and thus, accordingly, be either indifferent to the material or indifferent to the spiritual. Once the energy that sustains physical existence has been used up and the soul journeys on, in order to reach a genuine integration with the Oneness of the Infinite, it also needs to be in a state of oneness.

A 17th century Kabbalist, R. Naphtali Hirtz Bacharach, equates Gehenom with a sponge. It sucks up all negativity and thus allows the soul to enter Gan Eden. It enables the soul to operate in a state of purity, oneness and total integration with the Infinite light.

It is empowering and true, that when we deeply desire a glimpse into that universe, a world of infinite vision and delight, we need only live life today in an integrated and harmonious way and, as such, experience the future within the present. We have the power to see a world bathed in the infinite if we but expand our vision and cleanse ourselves and our doors of our perception" (http://www.iyyun.com/thought/hell_heaven.html).

and this:

"So what is the afterlife exactly?

When a person dies and goes to heaven, the judgment is not arbitrary and externally imposed. Rather, the soul is shown two videotapes. The first video is called "This is Your Life!" Every decision and every thought, all the good deeds, and the embarrassing things a person did in private is all replayed without any embellishments. It's fully bared for all to see. That's why the next world is called Olam HaEmet - "the World of Truth," because
there we clearly recognize our personal strengths and shortcomings, and the true purpose of life. In short, Hell is not the Devil with a pitchfork stoking the fires.

The second video depicts how a person's life "could have been..." if the right choices had been made, if the opportunities were seized, if the potential was actualized. This video - the pain of squandered potential - is much more difficult to bear. But at the same time it purifies the soul as well. The pain creates regret which removes the barriers and enables the soul to completely connect to G-d.

Not all souls merit Gehenom. It is for people who have done good but need to be purified. A handful of people are too evil for Gehenom, and they are punished eternally. Pharaoh is one example" (http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_heavenhell.htm).

However, this does not really answer your question since these are interpretations that have evolved to what they are today, but they don't give the earliest commentaries. 

I'll keep looking.

Shalom,
Vern

[metis]

Another:

"


» Home > Heaven and Hell > Hell and Its Purpose


Basics of Judaism

Heaven and Hell
Hell and Its Purpose
Do we as Jews believe in Hell? If so what would someone do to deserve a place in hell?

Hell, yes.

Well, sort of…

...you see, it’s nothing like the images we probably have of it, fashioned from TV evangelists and B horror movies. There’s no devil, and perhaps even no recognizable physical existence.

Rather, it is a place (called “Gehinnom” in Hebrew) where the soul is exposed to the reality of everything that it did in this world, while simultaneously being shown the potential that it possessed to achieve. All the facts are laid on the table in a manner which is irrefutable and undeniable. The principal punishment of Gehinnom is the inescapable pain of regret for wasting or even abusing one’s potential and thus not achieving what one could have achieved.

Gehinnom is a cleansing process for the soul to enable it to eventually enter the World To Come. Some souls are able to enter the World To Come without experiencing Gehinnom, either because of their lofty achievements in this world or because they already experienced all their suffering there (or a combination of both). For those who have to go to Gehinnom, the cleansing process is usually completed in eleven or twelve months. On rare occasion, for people who did terrible evil in their lifetimes, causing many to suffer, Gehinnom can take much longer. For example, the Talmud states that Titus Andronicus, the Roman general who destroyed Jerusalem and the second Temple in 70 ACE, is still inGehinnom .

Only G-d, with His infinite knowledge and wisdom, can judge who does or does not deserve Gehinnom and how long their stay there must last. But it is obvious, from our human perspective, that by studying and fulfilling the Torah as much as we can, we move ourselves away from the judgment of Gehinnom" (http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/the-basics-of-judaism/heaven-and-hell/?p=994).
 

[Acumen]

Vern,

Thanks for the resources, they were interesting.

[Howiedds]

Daniel, ostensibly, is speaking of the time of the Babylonian Exile under Nebuchadnezzar, but a less traditional view is that it is written at the time of the Seleucid Greek domination of Israel, ca 200 BCE. The Greeks could not be confronted directly, thus the references to the Babylonians instead.

Because it is a late entry among the Jewish canonical books, as it approaches the 1st century, it uniquely makes references to resurrection and  after life, which were mainstream Jewish beliefs of the 1st century.

Although this chapter of Daniel is considered to be a commentary on the distant Messianic era to come, the first few verses are thought to be the concluding verses of the previous chapter. (Remember that the chapter and verses were an arbitrary imposition on the original text).

12:1 And at that time (After the death of Antiochus, the Seleucid ruler at the time of the 1st Chanukah, 164 BCE) ...the great prince (Michael, the archangel who is the patron of Israel, the champion and protector of Israel) ...there shall be a time of trouble... (as there was at the Babylonian invasion and the repression by the Seleucid Greeks under Antiochus) ...they people shall be delivered... (as a consequence of the fall of the Babylonians/Seleucid Greeks) everyone that shall be found written in the book( The book in which are registered the names of the pious and righteous Jews who are destined to have a share in the glorious hereafter).

12:2 The resurrection of the dead will occur as part of Divine justice, because many of those who sleep in the dust died as martyrs at the hands of the Babylonians/Seleucid Greeks in proof of their love for HaShem. Not all will be resurrected, but  many, the deserving.

The reference to everlasting abhorrenceis similar to the use of the word abhorrence that ends Isaiah, the only other place the word is used.  In Isaiah 66:24, those that rebelled against God will continue to have the worms devouring their bodies and the fire of Gehenna that was to purge their souls will never be quenched.

Acumen, you may have hit on the Jewish source of Dante's Inferno.

[Acumen]

Howie,

Thanks for the post -- I know it's a busy time for you.  Do you think that the author of Danial supposed an everlasting punishment for some?

[Howiedds]

Acumen:

Do you think that the author of Danial supposed an everlasting punishment for some?

I can see why your isolated verse would allow that assumption, but normative Judaism never assumed that, unless it was mean that not getting "to go" to Olam HaBah, the World to Come at the end of history was a form of punishment.

[agricola]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that this 'resurrection of the dead' that Daniel was speaking of, wasn't exactly into an 'afterlife' but was a return to actual life during the time of the messiah. At which point, everyone would 'return' for the messianic age - which was a period of time on earth, not an afterlife.

I cannot recall where I saw that, sorry - it might have been (and increasingly I think it likely was) in Gillman's book about the evolution of Jewish belief in an afterlife (we don't see any evidence of that in the earlier parts of the Tanakh) over time: The Death of Death is the name of that book. I really enjoyed it, but it has been several months since I read it.

However - as howie pointed out - Daniel is not a 'prophet' in Judaism. His book is one of the Writings, and is one of the books in the Tanakh that barely made 'the cut' into the official canon. I read somewhere (ELSE, not in Gillman) that Daniel was just too popular to leave out, although the other Daniel stories (in the Apochrypha) were not included. It is pretty easy to see that the 'theology' of Daniel is not quite congruent with most of the rest of the Tanakh.

[Acumen]

Agricola,

However - as howie pointed out - Daniel is not a 'prophet' in Judaism. His book is one of the Writings, and is one of the books in the Tanakh that barely made 'the cut' into the official canon. I read somewhere (ELSE, not in Gillman) that Daniel was just too popular to leave out, although the other Daniel stories (in the Apochrypha) were not included. It is pretty easy to see that the 'theology' of Daniel is not quite congruent with most of the rest of the Tanakh.

Okay, let's put aside the passage in Daniel for a bit.  Here is a passage in Isaiah 66.

And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

Here is a passage that appears to intimate the same message in Daniel.  They both describe an unending continuance of an undesirable state.  How has Judaism dealt with this passage, since Isaiah is a prophet.

-Acumen

[Howiedds]

agricola:

I seem to recall reading somewhere that this 'resurrection of the dead' that Daniel was speaking of, wasn't exactly into an 'afterlife' but was a return to actual life during the time of the messiah.

You are right about the evolving term Olam Haba, the world to come. Originally, even into the 1st century, Olam HaBa really meant the resurrection at the end of history, the end of time. After the 1st century, and certainly in the modern period, Olam HaBa came to mean where the righteous dead souls go after death.

[Howiedds]

Acumen:

Okay, let's put aside the passage in Daniel for a bit.  Here is a passage in Isaiah 66.

And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

Here is a passage that appears to intimate the same message in Daniel.  They both describe an unending continuance of an undesirable state.  How has Judaism dealt with this passage, since Isaiah is a prophet.

As I mentioned in #13, the two references are very similar, perhaps Daniel drawing on Isaiah. They are the only two places where abhorrence is used.

In Isaiah 66:24, those that rebelled against God will continue to have the worms devouring their bodies and the fire of Gehenna that was to purge their souls will never be quenched. The dead bodies  of the rebels and apostates would lie condemned to everlasting disgrace.

I think there is room for you to find the underpinning you seek for the Christian view in this quote. But Jews dispute among themselves as to whether or not these final chapters of Isaiah are prophetic or contemporary to the time. Also, there is equal room for the understanding that the comments are about the eternal disgrace that is to be heaped on the corpses of the rebels against God, a disgrace that is independent of an eternal damnation in Hell.