Jews and Atheism

[Acumen]

Howie,

How does it work with Jews who believe there is no God?  Will they share in the afterlife with devout Jews who uphold the commandment to love God with your whole heart?

-Acumen

[Howiedds]

I know you have heard the talmudic phrase, "The righteous of all nations have a portion in the world to come." It applies to all the righteous, Jew or gentile. I would go on to say that the Jewish view is that the atheist who says there is no God is "saved" as long as if he acts as if there is one.

It is the theme, from my point of view, of your story of the Good Samaritan. The priest and the levite, surely no atheists have not gotten the message, are not living God's prescription for Tikkun Olam, repair of the world: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, protecting the powerless, being responsible one for another as the children of one parent (aka a brothers and sisters) despite their belief in God.

Then along comes the "atheist," the Samaritan, the non-Jew who is not allowed into the Temple, who could hardly have heard the message. He acts as if he has heard the prescription, has internalized it, and lives it by helping the poor man lying face down in the street. He is the one who is saved and not the message hearing hypocrites who hear but do not.

A very Jewish story.

[julrich]

an atheist is one who is engaged in a dialogue about intellectual assertions concerning  abstract religious ideas of a supreme being or supernatural reality.  It's an intellectual position about an abstract notion of truth.  And the atheist position is an assertion that the religious or spiritual notion of a divine or supernatural being beyond our material senses is false or untenable. 

I don't think the ancient Biblical dialogue included this intellectual discussion about rational convictions concerning the truth of assertions about the reality or existence of the divine being.  Actually, an atheist is rejecting a Greek rhetorical case for intellectual belief in religious assertions of truth.  If the Atheist is a Jew he isn't necessarily rejecting the ancient attitude of faithfulness to the commandments of a divine being in relationship to the people of the tribe.  That ancient attitude is a sense of trusting obedience to a way of being in that relationship, which doesn't necessarily involve the intellectual convictions of the individual at all.  As a Biblical Jew you didn't choose whether to assent to the belief that the Jewish God exists, any more than you agreed to become a Jew.  You understood that acting as if there was some other God than the Jewish God would be an act of betrayal, so you obeyed that first commandment.  You did this because you were a Jew, not because you were intellectually convinced of something true that Jews know which you chose to believe.
I don't think Jewish faithfulness is quite the same thing as religious belief. 

How should we judge the person who lives faithfully according to the commandments of a God he cannot intellectually believe in?  Is this person more faithful than the person of blind conviction, or less?

shalom
big julie

shalom
big julie

[metis]

How should we judge the person who lives faithfully according to the commandments of a God he cannot intellectually believe in?  Is this person more faithful than the person of blind conviction, or less?

First of all, let me commend you on what I think is an excellent post.

I would tend to believe he/she might well be more "faithful" in the sense that this person is questioning, and yet seemingly recognizing that he/she is not in a position to know the full picture.  And some of our sages taught exactly that. 

Shalom,
Vern

[Acumen]

Yeah, big Julie does appear to have an aptitude for writing.   

[Acumen]

Vern,

I would tend to believe he/she might well be more "faithful" in the sense that this person is questioning, and yet seemingly recognizing that he/she is not in a position to know the full picture.  And some of our sages taught exactly that.

I think the fundamental problem of the atheist is not knowledge, but belief.  Without belief, there can be no reliance.  If I don't believe the cable will hold, then I cannot rely on it enough to bungee jump.  If the atheist Jew doesn't believe in God, then following the rules isn't a reflection of their love toward God, but rather their love for the rules.  Indirectly, that may qualify as loving God, but not with the whole heart.

[metis]

I think the fundamental problem of the atheist is not knowledge, but belief.  Without belief, there can be no reliance.  If I don't believe the cable will hold, then I cannot rely on it enough to bungee jump.  If the atheist Jew doesn't believe in God, then following the rules isn't a reflection of their love toward God, but rather their love for the rules.  Indirectly, that may qualify as loving God, but not with the whole heart.

A lack of a belief in something where there may not be sufficient evidence, I really don't think is a "problem".  Matter of fact, it may well be the other way around since the "believer" may have created a paradigm that may interfere with actually perceiving their own possible bias. 

Each peoples have their traditions, and it's often the case whereas even atheists often follow some religious traditions anyway since there are benefits in regards to the family and the society.  In anthropology, we often refer to religion and other traditions as the "glue" that helps hold society together.  When I go to church with my wife, I enjoy the service most of the time, and I often do get something out of it even though I don't participate.  I really don't have a problem with doing that.  I have not only a respect for my wife, of course, but also for Christianity as well.

As a Jew who regularly attends Torah study and many services when I'm at my place downstate, I observe most traditions even though I'm non-theistic.  But it's difficult to "love God" if I'm far from certain there is one.  And why should we assume that, if there's a God, there's only one?  Maybe the polytheists are right.  Can you supply evidence that they are wrong?  I can't.

Sorry if this response seems rather disjointed, but I'm too tired to rewrite it.

Shalom,
Vern         

[julrich]

What happens in the mind of a person who loves someone not present as the concept of that person they've idealized as a primary loved one?  This question could apply to a person who loses a loved one, and goes on forever loving the thought of that person, or it could also apply to the person who concieves of one unknown and then projects that conception upon someone they meet.  Suppose you spent your entire youth idealizing your natural parent in their absence.  Suppose you spent your lifetime comparing every lover to your first, lost love?  How do we devote ourselves to someone who is an abstraction or a construct in our minds, and is never actually present physically?  Is this something like our relationship to God or to Jesus?  Do we just hang on to a dream driven by longing, or do we continually check and refine our sense of possibilities against what is realistic?  Or some of both?

jules