What exactly is oneness Pentecostalism?

[redkim]

More specifically, what does "oneness" mean? Do you believe in the Trinity?

[Acumen]

More specifically, what does "oneness" mean? Do you believe in the Trinity?

No, not the traditional understanding of the term.  In a nutshell, we believe that God has manifested Himself in various ways, but is not three or more distinct persons possessing distinct personalities.

[redkim]

More specifically, what does "oneness" mean? Do you believe in the Trinity?

No, not the traditional understanding of the term.  In a nutshell, we believe that God has manifested Himself in various ways, but is not three or more distinct persons possessing distinct personalities.

So who was Jesus praying to at various times in the NT?

[Acumen]

More specifically, what does "oneness" mean? Do you believe in the Trinity?

No, not the traditional understanding of the term.  In a nutshell, we believe that God has manifested Himself in various ways, but is not three or more distinct persons possessing distinct personalities.

So who was Jesus praying to at various times in the NT?

Jesus was praying to God.  Oneness Pentecostals accept the dual nature of Christ -- being both man and God.  In other words, the man Jesus was praying to his God.

Interestingly, how do the Catholics answer this very same question.  I would presume they would be reluctant to suggest that God the Son was praying to God the Father because prayer indicates inferiority on the behalf of at least one party involved. 

[redkim]

So, I am confused now. Are you saying that Jesus was praying to himself?

And yes, Catholics do very much say that Jesus the Son was praying to God the Father. We believe in the Trinity: 3 persons in one God.

[Acumen]

So, I am confused now. Are you saying that Jesus was praying to himself?

On the short of it, yes.  Oneness Pentecostals believe that there is no other rational way of looking at it.  If God the Son was praying to God the Father, then one must be inferior to the other.  If one is inferior to the other, then one of them isn't God because God cannot be anything less the omnipotent or perfect.  For instance, when Jesus claimed ignorance of the time of his second coming, the Oneness Pentecostal explains this as the man Jesus doesn't know all things.  For the Catholic, this is a difficult paradox to address.  How does God lack knowledge?

And yes, Catholics do very much say that Jesus the Son was praying to God the Father. We believe in the Trinity: 3 persons in one God.

Right, but that doesn't make sense to the Oneness Pentecostal.  God is not inferior to anyone.  Inferiority denotes imperfection, and God is perfect in all ways.

[redkim]

So, I am confused now. Are you saying that Jesus was praying to himself?

On the short of it, yes.  Oneness Pentecostals believe that there is no other rational way of looking at it.  If God the Son was praying to God the Father, then one must be inferior to the other.  If one is inferior to the other, then one of them isn't God because God cannot be anything less the omnipotent or perfect.  For instance, when Jesus claimed ignorance of the time of his second coming, the Oneness Pentecostal explains this as the man Jesus doesn't know all things.  For the Catholic, this is a difficult paradox to address.  How does God lack knowledge?

I don't know that it was God lacking knowledge as much as it was Jesus the man lacking it.

And yes, Catholics do very much say that Jesus the Son was praying to God the Father. We believe in the Trinity: 3 persons in one God.

Right, but that doesn't make sense to the Oneness Pentecostal.  God is not inferior to anyone.  Inferiority denotes imperfection, and God is perfect in all ways.

Yes, God is perfect, as is Jesus. It doesn't make sense that Jesus is talking to himself in prayer, imo.

But here is a thought: Since we believe that Jesus is God incarnate, that is, being human in all ways except sin, then it would only make sense that his knowledge is diminished, that is, brought to a human level, while He was incarnate. Otherwise, he would not be truly human. This is just my opinion.

[Acumen]

I don't know that it was God lacking knowledge as much as it was Jesus the man lacking it.

Now you're starting to sound like a Oneness Pentecostal.   

Yes, God is perfect, as is Jesus. It doesn't make sense that Jesus is talking to himself in prayer, imo.

Sure it does.  Remember, Jesus had two natures that struggled with each other.  Recall when he said sometime before his crucifixion, "not my will, but thine be done?"  What exactly does that mean?  The Oneness Pentecostal would say that the man Jesus recognized that his human will naturally desired life, not death.  However, what does the Catholic say?  How could one divine will take a back seat to another?  And furthermore, it would denote that these divine wills weren't perfectly aligned toward the same goal.

So although the Oneness Pentecostal view may not make sense to you, it doesn't cause logical inconsistencies like say, an inferior god.

But here is a thought: Since we believe that Jesus is God incarnate, that is, being human in all ways except sin, then it would only make sense that his knowledge is diminished, that is, brought to a human level, while He was incarnate. Otherwise, he would not be truly human. This is just my opinion.

And I think your opinion is the correct one.

[redkim]

I don't know that it was God lacking knowledge as much as it was Jesus the man lacking it.

Now you're starting to sound like a Oneness Pentecostal.  

Or maybe you are just starting to think like a Catholic. We have that borg-like way about us.

Yes, God is perfect, as is Jesus. It doesn't make sense that Jesus is talking to himself in prayer, imo.

Sure it does.  Remember, Jesus had two natures that struggled with each other.  Recall when he said sometime before his crucifixion, "not my will, but thine be done?"  What exactly does that mean?  The Oneness Pentecostal would say that the man Jesus recognized that his human will naturally desired life, not death.  However, what does the Catholic say?  How could one divine will take a back seat to another?  And furthermore, it would denote that these divine wills weren't perfectly aligned toward the same goal.[/quote

the Catholic just says something simple: It was the will of the father, not the will of the very human Jesus.

So although the Oneness Pentecostal view may not make sense to you, it doesn't cause logical inconsistencies like say, an inferior god.

Yes, an inferior god would be rather inconsistent.

But here is a thought: Since we believe that Jesus is God incarnate, that is, being human in all ways except sin, then it would only make sense that his knowledge is diminished, that is, brought to a human level, while He was incarnate. Otherwise, he would not be truly human. This is just my opinion.

And I think your opinion is the correct one.
[/quote]

I told you you were starting to think like a Catholic.

[Acumen]

I told you you were starting to think like a Catholic.

It could be my cousin, Elluminati rubbing off on me.   

[redkim]

I told you you were starting to think like a Catholic.

It could be my cousin, Elluminati rubbing off on me.  

Well, I was going to say that, but I didn't want to be the one to "out" the familial relations.

[Acumen]

Did you get a chance to read the first article on the homepage?  That's El's priest.

[redkim]

Did you get a chance to read the first article on the homepage?  That's El's priest.

I didn't get to read it yet

[Acumen]

We also have "First Things" journal on the left column in the Christian news section.  What an awesome homepage, hey? 

There I am padding myself on the back again.   

[redkim]

Not to be outdone in the bragging department, I must tell you that a friend of mine has written for FT on the public square a couple of times:

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=936
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=801

Don't be jealous.

[Acumen]

Perhaps that friend of yours would let us publish some of his works on our homepage?

[redkim]

Perhaps that friend of yours would let us publish some of his works on our homepage?

Perhaps. I could ask.

[Acumen]

Cool.