Islamic Schools in the US

[SquirleyWurley]

Are you saying that there are Christian schools that teach children to kill homosexuals??  If so they should be closed also. That is the consistanc that you asked for.

Yes it is.  I think your major point is getting lost on some people because of the way it is presented.  What I hear you saying is that religious tolerance is fine, religious schools are fine, but at some point it crosses a line and children are being indoctrinated to take harassing/bullying/violent actions up to and even including killing, and that is grounds for the closing of a school.

I agree with you.  Any school that teaches children that Jews/apostates/unbelievers/homosexuals/Christians/Muslims, etc., ought to be killed out of religious duty, ought to be shut down.  It's child abuse.  Even if it's exactly what's in the scripture.

[Acumen]

Wonderful to hear your comments

You are encouraging Muslim Schools to teach young children to Hate.

That's a false dichotomy.  Wanting to keep Muslim schools open in not the same thing as encouraging children to hate.

This is further evidence of the training ground that shows that 25% to 30% of young Muslims are ready to kill for their faith.

Doesn't that concern you??

Yes, if that statistic it true, then it bothers me.  However, closing schools isn't the answer because children learn those values primarily in the home.

Do you think that the commission that wants to change the texts to eliminate hatred is doing the right thing?

If the commission is thoughtful about how they alter the texts, then I would say yes.

What you don't understand is tha at the core of Islam is the Koran, a book like the Bible that openly demands that followers hate and even kill non-muslims.  Obviousy in the world today Muslims are acting on these "commands" every day.  I am surprised that you have any doubts.  I have posted these passages and discussed this issue here and on other arenas (as recently as today in the Hartford Courant)

This is the real problem.  I agree that children learn at home, but in the Muslim home the Koran is the same and the message of hate and violence against non-Muslims is also the same.

The most recent poll from the UK showed that 30% of young muslims would even KILL for their faith.  All may not be surprised at that, but I hope you would understand.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your interpretation of the Koran.  However, I would hesitate being so dogmatic about interpreting the scriptures of another religion for the simple fact that non-Christians aren't so good at interpreting ours'.  I can see how Christians could make mistakes interpreting the Koran based upon lack of context.

[SquirleyWurley]

I would hesitate being so dogmatic about interpreting the scriptures of another religion for the simple fact that non-Christians aren't so good at interpreting ours'.  I can see how Christians could make mistakes interpreting the Koran based upon lack of context.

There is quite the danger of reacting rather than thinking seriously, in context, about various subjects, yes.  Interpretations can be quick and loose, politics can flare up, things can escalate quite quickly.

[Faithfulee]

Are you saying that there are Christian schools that teach children to kill homosexuals??  If so they should be closed also. That is the consistanc that you asked for.

Yes it is.  I think your major point is getting lost on some people because of the way it is presented.  What I hear you saying is that religious tolerance is fine, religious schools are fine, but at some point it crosses a line and children are being indoctrinated to take harassing/bullying/violent actions up to and even including killing, and that is grounds for the closing of a school.

I agree with you.  Any school that teaches children that Jews/apostates/unbelievers/homosexuals/Christians/Muslims, etc., ought to be killed out of religious duty, ought to be shut down.  It's child abuse.  Even if it's exactly what's in the scripture.

THANK YOU FOR AGREEING WITH ME

You didn't ask me if I would kill because of interpretation of my religious teachings, or because a teacher told me to, you asked me if I would kill for my faith.  I would not kill for those reasons. 

Let me ask you, would you kill to protect your family?  What about yourself?  A friend?  A coworker?  What about an innocent stranger?  Would you die to protect any of them?  I would, yes to all of the above. 

My faith means no less to me, and is not something that is to be tossed aside. I'm sorry if you say differently.

al

But I am sure that you know that Muslims ARE KILLING because of their faith.  There are casualtes every day (mostly Muslims) because of this.  I hope you now appreciate the problem.

Killing another human being is a decision that I will not speculate upon.  I have never found an instance when my intelligence, and my faith prevented me from defending and protecting my family and friends and even innocent strangers.  I  thank God for that and I pray that God will continue to grace me and my children and grandchildren thusly. 

[Faithfulee]

Acumen
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your interpretation of the Koran.  However, I would hesitate being so dogmatic about interpreting the scriptures of another religion for the simple fact that non-Christians aren't so good at interpreting ours'.  I can see how Christians could make mistakes interpreting the Koran based upon lack of context.

I can understand your reluctance, any person of conscience would hesitate to say that another religion is calling on it's followers to Kill.  It certainly is an offense to my Christian upbringing.

The sad fact is that this IS FACT.  9/11/01 was not the first demonstration.
I have been debating this topic for years, and have my own Koran where the words jump out at you in passage after passage.

The best test of this is what is occuring ever day all over the world.  Muslims are killing mostly Muslims in the name of Allah.

Our Christian beliefs should not blind us to this reality.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

But I am sure that you know that Muslims ARE KILLING because of their faith.  There are casualtes every day (mostly Muslims) because of this.  I hope you now appreciate the problem.

What you mean is some Muslims are killing because of an interpretation or teachings from a leader.  It may surprise you to know that most Muslims are not terrorists. 

In do appreciate the problem, I have been dealing with it in one form or another for a long time.  You are new to it, and I welcome the company, but you are reacting out of fear and not thinking clearly. 

Killing another human being is a decision that I will not speculate upon. 

Still for the war?

all

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

The best test of this is what is occuring ever day all over the world.  Muslims are killing mostly Muslims in the name of Allah.

So your answer is what?  Wipe out Islam?  Show them what it's really like to have a war on their faith?

Seriously man, you sound crazy here, and I should know, it takes one to know one.

all

[SquirleyWurley]

all,

I thought the point was that a school that is Islamic (not just Muslim, but Islamic in particular) is indoctrinating its children to be sociopathic towards anyone but 'true Muslims', to be killers, etc., and that this crosses a certain line.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

It does cross a line, but the area beyond that line is not empty. 

I think it needs to be specified that the schools that teach to hate need to be targeted, and not the religion. 

To take that approach, Christianity is going to need to do some house keeping as well.

all

[SquirleyWurley]

"Teaching hate" is far too subjective, especially given all the ideology involved in the concepts of 'hate speach' and 'hate crime' -- what needs to be discussed as clearly and as objectively as possible is the precise nature of the line that is crossed.

Self defense is acceptable.  Picking on someone for harassment or violent bullying is not.  Any school which offers excuses for engaging in harassment, bullying, needs to be looked at more closely.  That is the direction I would suggest pursuing the subject.

[Faithfulee]

But I am sure that you know that Muslims ARE KILLING because of their faith.  There are casualtes every day (mostly Muslims) because of this.  I hope you now appreciate the problem.

What you mean is some Muslims are killing because of an interpretation or teachings from a leader.  It may surprise you to know that most Muslims are not terrorists. 


Does it surprise you that 25% of young American and UK Muslims are potiential terrorists???

In do appreciate the problem, I have been dealing with it in one form or another for a long time.  You are new to it, and I welcome the company, but you are reacting out of fear and not thinking clearly. 

Killing another human being is a decision that I will not speculate upon. 

Still for the war?

all

I am absolutely for the war against Islamic Terrorism . . on all fronts  Military and political (as in Turkey, eg)

This is he major problem of this decade and pershaps of our lifetimes if there are more nuclear Islamic nations.

The best test of this is what is occuring ever day all over the world.  Muslims are killing mostly Muslims in the name of Allah.

So your answer is what?  Wipe out Islam?  Show them what it's really like to have a war on their faith?

Seriously man, you sound crazy here, and I should know, it takes one to know one.

all

The war is against Islamic terroists that some say is a small fraction of Muslims,   most of whom are peaceful.

The best solution is for "peaceful" Muslims (the vast majority) to recognize the issue and correct it themselves.  This is not happening today.  The lame excuse above (the terrorists are  a small minority) is preventing  these peaceful Muslims from responding.

Can you imagine if it were Christians?  Say Baptists blowing up Episcopalians all over the world??  You can't because it is inconceivable. 

Insert Quote
It does cross a line, but the area beyond that line is not empty. 

I think it needs to be specified that the schools that teach to hate need to be targeted, and not the religion. 

To take that approach, Christianity is going to need to do some house keeping as well.

all

I have already qualified the poll to mean the Islamic school that teaches hate and promotes killing.  Other schools of religion that teach hate and killing should also be closed.
Insert Quote
"Teaching hate" is far too subjective, especially given all the ideology involved in the concepts of 'hate speach' and 'hate crime' -- what needs to be discussed as clearly and as objectively as possible is the precise nature of the line that is crossed.

Wurley  Self defense is acceptable.  Picking on someone for harassment or violent bullying is not.  Any school which offers excuses for engaging in harassment, bullying, needs to be looked at more closely.  That is the direction I would suggest pursuing the subject.

This topic arose because of an article that told of US government efforts to have a Muslim School in Virginia expunge from their textbooks (apparently donated from Saudi Arabia) Koran directed calls to do violence and kill non Muslims.  The school has failed to make all the changes requested. 

 

[Beautiful_Dreamer]

Lee, if you would not kill for your faith and do not understand others who say they would (as all is), does that mean you are a conscientious objector? Meaning, that you would not serve in our military because of your beliefs? I ask this because there isn't a solid guarantee that our country will never be attacked and that someone will try to take away our freedoms, the freedom of religion being one of them. If you were to be called to fight in such a war, where another country sought to take us over or something of the sort, you would by definition be asked to kill for the freedom to practice your faith. It might not be specifically killing *for* your faith, in Jesus' name, but for many dying/killing for the freedom to practice their faith doesn't carry much of a distinction. I see the distinction, but many do not.

FWIW, I do agree that it bothers me when people kill/hate in Jesus' name. I don't see much of Jesus at all in the quotes all mentioned, for instance. I am actually sometimes embarrassed that people who think like that claim the same faith I do, because I want no part of hate. It bothers me immensely that many people have been given grief by Christians simply because they were different, and that this flavors the way Christianity is seen. And thus can reflect badly on Jesus, who I feel certainly does not deserve to be associated with hateful behavior. The bumper sticker 'Lord Jesus, save me from your followers' comes to mind.

[Faithfulee]

Lee, if you would not kill for your faith and do not understand others who say they would (as all is), does that mean you are a conscientious objector? Meaning, that you would not serve in our military because of your beliefs?

I am a Korean War Veteran and would serve my country again if needed.  It is different to serve your country where we have enemies to our way of life, that it is to mobilize and become prepared to kill for your religion.


I ask this because there isn't a solid guarantee that our country will never be attacked and that someone will try to take away our freedoms, the freedom of religion being one of them. If you were to be called to fight in such a war, where another country sought to take us over or something of the sort, you would by definition be asked to kill for the freedom to practice your faith. It might not be specifically killing *for* your faith, in Jesus' name, but for many dying/killing for the freedom to practice their faith doesn't carry much of a distinction. I see the distinction, but many do not.

FWIW, I do agree that it bothers me when people kill/hate in Jesus' name. I don't see much of Jesus at all in the quotes all mentioned, for instance. I am actually sometimes embarrassed that people who think like that claim the same faith I do, because I want no part of hate. It bothers me immensely that many people have been given grief by Christians simply because they were different, and that this flavors the way Christianity is seen. And thus can reflect badly on Jesus, who I feel certainly does not deserve to be associated with hateful behavior. The bumper sticker 'Lord Jesus, save me from your followers' comes to mind.

Proyseliting is different from killing.  I have no problem with people being so committed to their faith that they want everyone to share in the joy of their experience.  Killing non-believers is something that only the Koran calls for among modern religions.

I have a varied experience with Christian denominations and currently attend a Baptist church that is not only charismatic, but it is huge and it does much good work for members and the community.  Winters I attend a Methodist church that is also large but less charismatic.  It too does good things.   With many members my wife and I will attend the Oberamagau passion play in 2009.  It should be a religious experience of a lifetime . . and lots of fun.