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Why Jesus name baptism?
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Topic: Why Jesus name baptism? (Read 691 times)
Acumen
Veteran
Faith: Protestant
Posts: 3451
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #40 on:
December 08, 2007, 10:07:39 AM »
Vern,
I certainly don't have one single problem whatsoever in a church teaching and practicing believer's baptism, but I do have to question those that I know were told they had to be "rebaptized" as adults if they converted into certain faiths. However, I fully realize that it's their choice.
First, believer baptism is explicitly established in the scriptures as a valid form of baptism. Within scriptural context, baptism follows a recognition of God's redemptive plan, an awareness or conviction of sinful living, and an influential impetus felt to change one's spiritual direction. None of these experiences can be reasonably ascribed to infants because they all require mature human faculties.
Second, non-believer baptism, at best, is alluded to by scripture when we surmise what could have happened when entire families were baptized by the apostles. From a tradition standpoint, infant baptism is an answer to a concern about the fate of unbaptized children if they were to die prematurely -- and not a doctrine found explicitly in the scriptures.
-Acumen
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The end of argument or discussion should be, not victory, but enlightenme
piglet
Jr. Member
Faith: Christian
Posts: 61
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #41 on:
September 02, 2008, 02:58:18 PM »
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Why do people baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost when the earliest christian history seems to indicate that it was done in Jesus' name only?
Because Jesus embodies the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. According to the pure divine revelation in His Bible. Mt 28:19; Col 2:9
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Any thoughts?
The earliest record (Acts) shows only baptizing into the name of Jesus. It doesn't show "baptizing in Jesus' name only," if you see the difference. It makes no exclusion of the words of Matthew 28:19. Which in fact precedes both in time and time of writing, Acts
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Acumen
Veteran
Faith: Protestant
Posts: 3451
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #42 on:
September 02, 2008, 03:40:04 PM »
Quote from: piglet on September 02, 2008, 02:58:18 PM
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Why do people baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost when the earliest christian history seems to indicate that it was done in Jesus' name only?
Because Jesus embodies the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. According to the pure divine revelation in His Bible. Mt 28:19; Col 2:9
Oddly, we actually agree here.
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Any thoughts?
The earliest record (Acts) shows only baptizing into the name of Jesus. It doesn't show "baptizing in Jesus' name only," if you see the difference. It makes no exclusion of the words of Matthew 28:19. Which in fact precedes both in time and time of writing, Acts
What I see is the exclusive application of a single name within the rite of baptism.
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The end of argument or discussion should be, not victory, but enlightenme
piglet
Jr. Member
Faith: Christian
Posts: 61
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #43 on:
September 03, 2008, 12:26:17 PM »
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What I see is the exclusive application of a single name within the rite of baptism.
What name is that ?
"Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," Mt 28:19
or "Jesus Christ," Ac 2:28 ?
Do you mean that "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" and "Jesus" are effectively one name ?
That's fair
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Acumen
Veteran
Faith: Protestant
Posts: 3451
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #44 on:
September 03, 2008, 01:09:36 PM »
Quote from: piglet on September 03, 2008, 12:26:17 PM
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What I see is the exclusive application of a single name within the rite of baptism.
What name is that ?
"Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," Mt 28:19
or "Jesus Christ," Ac 2:28 ?
Do you mean that "Father, Son, Holy Spirit" and "Jesus" are effectively one name ?
That's fair
Yes and no. Yes, they are effectively one name in Matthew 28 when no baptism is actually taking place, but they are not effectively one name in Acts when baptism is actively taking place. In my opinion, Matthew 28 is a synoptic attempt to clarify the force of the gospel message. Jesus says that all authority has been given unto him, and yet he tells his disciples to baptize in the name of three. Don't you think that's a little odd? All power has been given to one person, and yet he still instructs them to baptize in three? And then in Acts, they only baptize in the name of Jesus. Wouldn't that be apostolic disobedience?
Unless of course, Matthew 28 was sending a message that Jesus was the embodiment of these three divine modes of salvation. Unless Matthew 28 isn't a formula at all, but rather an attempt to clarify who Jesus was and what his function was to the unsaved world.
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The end of argument or discussion should be, not victory, but enlightenme
piglet
Jr. Member
Faith: Christian
Posts: 61
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #45 on:
September 03, 2008, 08:57:15 PM »
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Yes, they are effectively one name in Matthew 28 when no baptism is actually taking place, but they are not effectively one name in Acts when baptism is actively taking place.
Meaning that Jesus Christ's word in Matthew 28:19 is effectively a nothing, a decoration or a lie, according to modalism ?
What about Jesus Christ's word, say, in Matthew 24:25 "Behold, I've told you beforehand;"
when afterhand isn't actually taking place ? Is that also to modalism somehow not real ?
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Jesus says that all authority has been given unto him, and yet he tells his disciples to baptize in the name of three.
Jesus also says that "just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son to also have life in Himself;" so also the Father gave His Son "authority to execute judgment because He's the Son of Man." Jn 5:26-27.
And that both He and His Father (who eternally indwell each other) will send Their Spirit of reality to "guide you into all the reality..." Jn 14--16, in particular 16:13.
So i don't see why you write "yet" in your sentence
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Don't you think that's a little odd?
No. God is Father, Son, and Spirit. From eternity to eternity. And throughout Their Bible, especially from beginning of New Testament to end. So why would i think it's odd the slightest ?
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All power has been given to one person, and yet he still instructs them to baptize in three?
Father, Son, and Spirit are Three in One
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And then in Acts, they only baptize in the name of Jesus. Wouldn't that be apostolic disobedience?
If the apostles only or mostly had a formalistic religion, such as Oneness Pentecostalism or Roman Catholicism, it probably would be disobedience. Thankfully they, and i, don't
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Unless of course, Matthew 28 was sending a message that Jesus was the embodiment of these three divine modes of salvation.
Modes ?
Father, Son, and Spirit are more than modes and labels.
Nor are they independent modes of salvation, or salvations.
They not only live as One, They work as One
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Unless Matthew 28 isn't a formula at all, but rather an attempt to clarify who Jesus was and what his function was to the unsaved world.
Just as Acts 2:38 etc isn't any formula at all, so neither was Matthew 28:19 ever any formula at all. Baptism is and should be a reality. Not a mere symbol or religion. Likewise with the Father, Son, and Spirit. Jesus Christ. He isn't a mode, He isn't mere modes, They are not a formula or mere words. They are the eternally interrelating Persons comprising the mysterious person who is God
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Acumen
Veteran
Faith: Protestant
Posts: 3451
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #46 on:
September 04, 2008, 04:14:58 PM »
Quote from: piglet on September 03, 2008, 08:57:15 PM
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Yes, they are effectively one name in Matthew 28 when no baptism is actually taking place, but they are not effectively one name in Acts when baptism is actively taking place.
Meaning that Jesus Christ's word in Matthew 28:19 is effectively a nothing, a decoration or a lie, according to modalism ?
No. I gave my explanation.
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Jesus says that all authority has been given unto him, and yet he tells his disciples to baptize in the name of three.
Jesus also says that "just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son to also have life in Himself;" so also the Father gave His Son "authority to execute judgment because He's the Son of Man." Jn 5:26-27.
And that both He and His Father (who eternally indwell each other) will send Their Spirit of reality to "guide you into all the reality..." Jn 14--16, in particular 16:13.
So i don't see why you write "yet" in your sentence
Okay, a few things here. First, if the Son is equally God just as the Father is equally God, then why does the Son need authority to be given to him? As God, the Son already has "all authority" over the heavens and the earth.
Second, you haven't explained the quasi-discontinuity of the passage. All the authority has been invested in the Son, so why do believers need to identify with the Father and Holy Spirit in baptism? Why didn't Jesus just say that all the authority was equally shared by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
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Don't you think that's a little odd?
No. God is Father, Son, and Spirit. From eternity to eternity. And throughout Their Bible, especially from beginning of New Testament to end. So why would i think it's odd the slightest ?
Again, then why was "all authority" given to the Son by the Father IF the Son had the authority from the beginning?
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And then in Acts, they only baptize in the name of Jesus. Wouldn't that be apostolic disobedience?
If the apostles only or mostly had a formalistic religion, such as Oneness Pentecostalism or Roman Catholicism, it probably would be disobedience. Thankfully they, and i, don't
You didn't answer my question. In Matt. 28, Jesus instructs his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In Acts, the apostles baptized in the name of Jesus. Why?
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Unless of course, Matthew 28 was sending a message that Jesus was the embodiment of these three divine modes of salvation.
Modes ?
Father, Son, and Spirit are more than modes and labels.
Nor are they independent modes of salvation, or salvations.
They not only live as One, They work as One
Stating more dogma doesn't explain or justify your position.
Quick question, why doesn't the Holy Spirit ever converse with God the Father?
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Unless Matthew 28 isn't a formula at all, but rather an attempt to clarify who Jesus was and what his function was to the unsaved world.
Just as Acts 2:38 etc isn't any formula at all, so neither was Matthew 28:19 ever any formula at all. Baptism is and should be a reality. Not a mere symbol or religion. Likewise with the Father, Son, and Spirit. Jesus Christ. He isn't a mode, He isn't mere modes, They are not a formula or mere words. They are the eternally interrelating Persons comprising the mysterious person who is God
Again, that doesn't explain anything. Paul identified baptism with Jesus death, burial, and resurrection. So why would we baptize in the name of the Father and Holy Spirit if they didn't die on the cross?
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The end of argument or discussion should be, not victory, but enlightenme
piglet
Jr. Member
Faith: Christian
Posts: 61
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #47 on:
September 05, 2008, 02:29:47 PM »
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[Jesus Christ's word in Matthew 28:19 is effectively a nothing?]
No.
Then according to modalism i can, as i have, say "i baptize you into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" when baptizing a new believer into Jesus the Son of God ?
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I gave my explanation.
"Yes and no"
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if the Son is equally God just as the Father is equally God, then why does the Son need authority to be given to him?
"Because He's the Son of Man" Jn 5:27.
"He called God His own Father making Himself equal with God" Jn 5:18.
i don't see why you write your "if" sentence
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As God, the Son already has "all authority" over the heavens and the earth.
As man, the Son is subject to God
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All the authority has been invested in the Son, so why do believers need to identify with the Father and Holy Spirit in baptism?
Because Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are inseparably one personal God and inseparable from One Another
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Why didn't Jesus just say that all the authority was equally shared by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
Because They share, and give, more than authority. Or i should say: Their authority's inseparable from Their Being
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why was "all authority" given to the Son by the Father IF the Son had the authority from the beginning?
Because the Son hadn't manhood from the beginning.
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God...And the Word became flesh"
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In Matt. 28, Jesus instructs his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In Acts, the apostles baptized in the name of Jesus. Why?
Because "baptizing in the name" doesn't mean reciting the words "Father, Son, Spirit, Jesus, Christ" or "I baptize you in the name of..." when baptizing.
Thankfully the apostles didn't, and whoever wills needn't, have a formulaic formalistic religion such as Oneness Pentecostalism or Roman Catholicism or many sects of "Protestantism"
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Stating more dogma doesn't explain or justify your position.
Then it might be fair to say that calling Father, Son, and Spirit "modes" doesn't explain how The're mere modes, much less make Them so
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why doesn't the Holy Spirit ever converse with God the Father?
"The Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings which can't be uttered...He intercedes for the saints according to God" Rm 8:26-27.
"God said Let Us make man in Our image" Gen 1:26.
"Which Spirit is the word of God" Eph 6:17
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[They are the eternally interrelating Persons comprising the mysterious person who is God]
that doesn't explain anything.
The Father Son Spirit God needn't explain anything to be who He is.
Truth's not truth because your, or my, created mind can encapsulate it.
Instead, it's the 3-1 God who created us spirit, soul, and body
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Paul identified baptism with Jesus death, burial, and resurrection. So why would we baptize in the name of the Father and Holy Spirit if they didn't die on the cross?
What did Jesus tell you, since He's the One who said "baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" ?
Father and Holy Spirit were embodied in Christ's embodiment, and incarnated in Christ's incarnation. And only in Christ's embodiment and incarnation. Col 2:9; Jn 14:10-11; Lk 4:1. They left Him economically, outwardly, Mt 27:46. But never intrinsically, inwardly, Jn 1:1, 4, 18; Col 2:9; Isa 9:6; 1 P 3:18; 2 Cor 5:19. Furthermore, "the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit," 1 Cor 15:45, incorporating and compounding into the Holy Spirit all that Christ became, did, and experienced.
This is for your, and my, salvation, the building of His Body
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Acumen
Veteran
Faith: Protestant
Posts: 3451
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #48 on:
September 06, 2008, 08:43:51 PM »
Quote from: piglet on September 05, 2008, 02:29:47 PM
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[Jesus Christ's word in Matthew 28:19 is effectively a nothing?]
No.
Then according to modalism i can, as i have, say "i baptize you into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" when baptizing a new believer into Jesus the Son of God ?
You most certainly can, and most Christians do. I won't say it's a damnable offense, but I will say it's inappropriate.
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if the Son is equally God just as the Father is equally God, then why does the Son need authority to be given to him?
"Because He's the Son of Man" Jn 5:27.
Right, and this is the modalist explanation. However, trinitarians view the Son as a composite of man and God the Son. So again, why does God the Son need authority from God the Father?
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As God, the Son already has "all authority" over the heavens and the earth.
As man, the Son is subject to God
I understand, but this neglects the theology of Jesus already being the Godman. While Jesus died on the cross, according to trinitarian theology, he was fully God the Son and fully man. So why would this composite of God and man need authority from God the Father when he was already God the Son? Trinitarianism has no answer for this, but modalism does.
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All the authority has been invested in the Son, so why do believers need to identify with the Father and Holy Spirit in baptism?
Because Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are inseparably one personal God and inseparable from One Another
If they are inseparable, then why the need to name each of them in a baptismal rite?
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In Matt. 28, Jesus instructs his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In Acts, the apostles baptized in the name of Jesus. Why?
Because "baptizing in the name" doesn't mean reciting the words "Father, Son, Spirit, Jesus, Christ" or "I baptize you in the name of..." when baptizing.
You're avoiding the question. In Matthew, Jesus instructs his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In Acts, they baptized in the name of the Son only. There is no mention of baptizing in the name of the Father or Holy Spirit. IF baptizing in the name doesn't entail using or reciting words, then why is Jesus' name mentioned at all in the account of Acts? Why did they not just say, "I baptize you", period?
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Thankfully the apostles didn't, and whoever wills needn't, have a formulaic formalistic religion such as Oneness Pentecostalism or Roman Catholicism or many sects of "Protestantism"
Apparently we get to re-write the book of Acts because the apostles most certainly baptized the way Oneness Pentecostals do today. And in fact, most of the eastern Christian empire during the first three centuries baptized in the name of Jesus as opposed to the Matthew version, which created a bit of a problem for the western Christian church. The early church fathers address the issue and demand a consensus concerning the baptismal formula.
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why doesn't the Holy Spirit ever converse with God the Father?
"The Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings which can't be uttered...He intercedes for the saints according to God" Rm 8:26-27.
That's your example? Intercession is not a conversation. It's help.
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[They are the eternally interrelating Persons comprising the mysterious person who is God]
that doesn't explain anything.
The Father Son Spirit God needn't explain anything to be who He is.
Truth's not truth because your, or my, created mind can encapsulate it.
Instead, it's the 3-1 God who created us spirit, soul, and body
That doesn't explain anything either.
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Paul identified baptism with Jesus death, burial, and resurrection. So why would we baptize in the name of the Father and Holy Spirit if they didn't die on the cross?
What did Jesus tell you, since He's the One who said "baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" ?
That doesn't answer the question. Pauline theology ties Christian baptism with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (Romans 6). Paul states that those who are baptized into Jesus are baptized into his death. In Acts, his apostles baptize believers into Jesus because the message they preached was one of his death and resurrection. They did not baptize in the name of the Holy Spirit or the Father because deity cannot die, nor resurrect. Only the Son suffered, bled, and died, and therefore only the Son's name was used in baptism.
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The end of argument or discussion should be, not victory, but enlightenme
piglet
Jr. Member
Faith: Christian
Posts: 61
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #49 on:
September 07, 2008, 01:29:44 PM »
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[say "i baptize you into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" when baptizing a new believer into Jesus the Son of God] it's inappropriate.
Which is why Jesus Christ isn't modalism. Both He said it, and it's appropriate to Him
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[...He's the Son of Man Jn 5:27]
Right, and this is the modalist explanation.
i'm not a modalist, and i'm the one who supplied you the explanation.
Nor is modalism's heresy that Jesus, or God, is man.
Modalism's heresy is that Father, Son, and Spirit merely are modes
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trinitarians view the Son as a composite of man and God the Son.
The Son of God IS the Son of Man. Which is why "trinitarians" are accurate in this regard
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why does God the Son need authority from God the Father?
Because He became the Son of Man, Jn 5:27; 1:14; Phil 2:5-7; etc
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[As God, the Son already has "all authority" over the heavens and the earth.
As man, the Son is subject to God]
this neglects the theology of Jesus already being the Godman.
To the contrary: This IS the theology that Jesus is the GodMan.
Nor was God the Son "already" GodMan until God became Man.
Which may be the theology you're neglecting
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While Jesus died on the cross, according to trinitarian theology, he was fully God the Son and fully man. So why would this composite of God and man need authority from God the Father when he was already God the Son?
The Son of God wasn't eternally already Man. Rather, one day, the Word became flesh
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If they are inseparable, then why the need to name each of them in a baptismal rite?
Because They also Are.
Unlike modalism's teaching that They essentially and ontologically are not. But rather are merely designations or temporal phases
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You're avoiding the question.
To the contrary" you're avoiding the answer
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why is Jesus' name mentioned at all in the account of Acts?
For the same reason name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the account of Matthew. They're real, personal, enterable, and namable
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Why did they not just say, "I baptize you", period?
You mean like the record of Acts 8:38 and elsewhere ?
The New Testament writers frequently do write the verb "baptize" only, without adverbial phrases.
If you're suggesting that there's some kind of legalism to say only say the name "Jesus" when baptizing, you continue to be both contrary to the New Testament's direct words and Spirit.
Unless you can show us your legalism written in Scripture.
Want to give it a try ?
Would you like further begging for you to try ?
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Apparently we get to re-write the book of Acts because the apostles most certainly baptized the way Oneness Pentecostals do today.
How (other than modalism itself) is that "re-writing" the book of Acts ?
Is your equally silly claim that only Oneness Pentecostals say "Jesus" or "name of Jesus" or "i baptize you into Jesus," or "i baptize you into the name of Jesus" when baptizing ?
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most of the eastern Christian empire during the first three centuries baptized in the name of Jesus as opposed to the Matthew version,
You restate your (and/or modalism's) peculiar, odd problem better than i have.
In contrast to your statement, for Christians, Acts' and Matthew's versions don't oppose. But rather both are true and harmonize
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The early church fathers address the issue and demand a consensus concerning the baptismal formula.
That's their legalism and religious problem. "Formulas" are unrelated to Christ. Who is a person with a name. Embodying, even incarnating, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
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Intercession is not a conversation. It's help.
To the contrary: interecession's conversation. Help (to the intercession) is the supply and the answer. For example God got Abraham to intercede with God for Lot by conversing with Abraham, and Abraham's conversation with God there was Abraham's intercession for Lot
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Pauline theology ties Christian baptism with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (Romans 6). Paul states that those who are baptized into Jesus are baptized into his death. In Acts, his apostles baptize believers into Jesus because the message they preached was one of his death and resurrection. They did not baptize in the name of the Holy Spirit or the Father because deity cannot die, nor resurrect.
To the contrary: you (modalism) attempts (laughably) to create a negative theology, or legalism, by absence of direct mention of Matthew 28:19 in Acts. As if, even to begin with, Acts and Matthew 28:19 were somehow in conflict, or polar opposite commandments.
Yet at the same time, above, you apparently seemed to agree with me that baptizing into Jesus = baptizing into Father, Son, and Spirit.
So it's a sad, and transparent, deceit on your (modalism's) part. Kind of like your earlier "yes and no" answer to a simple direct question. Jesus said, to the contrary, let your yes be yes and your no be no.
The Son of God, as well as His Spirit and Father, are deity, and can pass thru death. In humanity. Which is exactly what not only the Son's deity, but also His Father's and Spirit's, did in the Son's human death. Father, Son, and Spirit are not separate. But indivisibly one. In being. This is Pauline (as well as the rest of the New Testament, and Old) theology
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Only the Son suffered, bled, and died, and therefore only the Son's name was used in baptism.
To the contrary: the Son Himself in Matthew 28:19 stated "baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," using the words "Father and Holy Spirit" with the word "baptizing." Just as Paul also did, for example, with "Spirit" in 1 Corinthians 12:12-13.
This is Pauline (not modalist) theology and writing
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Acumen
Veteran
Faith: Protestant
Posts: 3451
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #50 on:
September 09, 2008, 09:08:52 AM »
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trinitarians view the Son as a composite of man and God the Son.
The Son of God IS the Son of Man. Which is why "trinitarians" are accurate in this regard
Um . . . that's basically what I said. But if you want to restate it in a different way, and then pawn it off like it's different, then by all means . . .
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why does God the Son need authority from God the Father?
Because He became the Son of Man, Jn 5:27; 1:14; Phil 2:5-7; etc
That doesn't answer the question. You had just said that "The Son of God IS the Son of Man." If they are the same, then why does the Son of God need authority from God the Father? Isn't the Son of God equally God according to trinitarianism?
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why is Jesus' name mentioned at all in the account of Acts?
For the same reason name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the account of Matthew. They're real, personal, enterable, and namable
Again, that's not answering the question. Listen, if you don't know, then just admit it.
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Apparently we get to re-write the book of Acts because the apostles most certainly baptized the way Oneness Pentecostals do today.
How (other than modalism itself) is that "re-writing" the book of Acts ?
Is your equally silly claim that only Oneness Pentecostals say "Jesus" or "name of Jesus" or "i baptize you into Jesus," or "i baptize you into the name of Jesus" when baptizing ?
I didn't say that "only" Pentecostals baptize this way. I said that oneness Pentecostals baptize the way it was done in Acts, unlike our trinitarian counterparts.
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Intercession is not a conversation. It's help.
To the contrary: interecession's conversation. Help (to the intercession) is the supply and the answer. For example God got Abraham to intercede with God for Lot by conversing with Abraham, and Abraham's conversation with God there was Abraham's intercession for Lot
I don't disagree that some intercession takes place via conversation. Your biblical example with Abraham specifies an actual conversation, whereas your NT example does not. Again, your biblical example doesn't show that intercession is the same thing as a conversation.
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Pauline theology ties Christian baptism with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (Romans 6). Paul states that those who are baptized into Jesus are baptized into his death. In Acts, his apostles baptize believers into Jesus because the message they preached was one of his death and resurrection. They did not baptize in the name of the Holy Spirit or the Father because deity cannot die, nor resurrect.
To the contrary: you (modalism) attempts (laughably) to create a negative theology, or legalism, by absence of direct mention of Matthew 28:19 in Acts. As if, even to begin with, Acts and Matthew 28:19 were somehow in conflict, or polar opposite commandments.
Yet at the same time, above, you apparently seemed to agree with me that baptizing into Jesus = baptizing into Father, Son, and Spirit.
So it's a sad, and transparent, deceit on your (modalism's) part. Kind of like your earlier "yes and no" answer to a simple direct question. Jesus said, to the contrary, let your yes be yes and your no be no.
Again, you aren't very good at answering my questions. First, you did not address why Pauline theology connects baptism with Jesus' death and resurrection while staying logically consistent with applying the name of the Holy Spirit and God the Father in the baptismal rite. Only one person died on the cross, and it was a man. God the Father may have set the stage, but the Son died and resurrected, not God the Father. So again, why apply the Father's name in the baptismal rite when He didn't die or resurrect?
Second, I did not say that Matthew and Acts present opposing views. My point in mentioning the differences of baptismal descriptions is to show that trinitarians don't have an explanation, in part due to their incorrect trinitarian theology.
Modalists have no difficulties with their explanation. Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead in a single person, and therefore baptizing in the name of Jesus encompasses the three modes of the Godhead, which are the Father (creator), Son (redeemer/reconciler), and the Holy Spirit (regenerator/enabler). Trinitarians have to explain why the other two were left out in the account of Acts precisely because all three persons are co-equal.
There is another point that is equally relevant to the one above. In 1 Corinthians 10, where Paul says that the Israelites were baptized into Moses when they transversed the Red Sea, it was because they identified with their divinely anointed savior. Like Jesus, Moses was appointed by God to lead the people of Israel out of bondage. And analogous to our faith, when the Israelites crossed that sea, it took a lot of trust and an act of obedience to be baptized into Moses. Paul could have said that the Israelites were baptized into God the Father because without God, the Exodus would be impossible, but he didn't. God had anointed Moses as the prefigurement of Christ to save his people from bondage. Once again, modalism is in perfect alignment with Pauline theology here. We use Jesus' name in baptism because we identify with God's anointed one in his death, burial, and resurrection. Trinitarians make a mess of Pauline theology with their man-made doctrines. By baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it misses the point that we are supposed to identify with God's anointed savor, not with God's spirit. Paul attests to this point.
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piglet
Jr. Member
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Posts: 61
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #51 on:
September 09, 2008, 11:42:15 AM »
Quote
[why does God the Son need authority from God the Father?
Because He became the Son of Man, Jn 5:27; 1:14; Phil 2:5-7; etc]
That doesn't answer the question.
Yes it does. And did. At least twice now
Quote
You had just said that "The Son of God IS the Son of Man." If they are the same, then why does the Son of God need authority from God the Father?
Because He's the Son of Man. Jn 5:27 reads "Son of Man." Not "Son of God."
They're the same. But humanity and divinity, though mingled in Him, remain distinct.
That's the definition of "mingle." Lev 2.
So let's call that a third time the same answer against modalism
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Isn't the Son of God equally God according to trinitarianism?
i won't speak for "trinitarianism," but the apostles wrote:
"called God His own Father making Himself equal with God"
Jn 5:18 and
"being equal with God"
Philip 2:6 and
"of the Son: Your throne O God"
Heb 1:8
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[why is Jesus' name mentioned at all in the account of Acts?
For the same reason name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the account of Matthew. They're real, personal, enterable, and namable]
Again, that's not answering the question.
Again, that is answering the question. The New Testament (and Bible) is about God. And God became a man with a name. That's why His name's in Acts and the New Testament
Quote
Listen, if you don't know, then just admit it.
If you're dyslexic, then just admit it. No hard feelings
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Acumen
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Posts: 3451
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #52 on:
September 09, 2008, 03:44:39 PM »
Quote from: piglet on September 09, 2008, 11:42:15 AM
Quote
[why does God the Son need authority from God the Father?
Because He became the Son of Man, Jn 5:27; 1:14; Phil 2:5-7; etc]
That doesn't answer the question.
Yes it does. And did. At least twice now
No, it doesn't. Christians understand that Jesus was both God and man. Trinitarians believe that God the Son was incarnated, not God the Father. God the Son "mingled" with flesh. So when Jesus says, in Matthew, that all authority over the heaven and earth was given unto him, he is speaking as a single composite of God the Son and the Son of Man. So, why did the composite of God the Son and the Son of Man receive this authority, and how could this be when the members of the trinity are co-equal?
And since you failed to address my point about baptism's identification with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, I will repost it.
"
First, you did not address why Pauline theology connects baptism with Jesus' death and resurrection while staying logically consistent with applying the name of the Holy Spirit and God the Father in the baptismal rite. Only one person died on the cross, and it was a man. God the Father may have set the stage, but the Son died and resurrected, not God the Father. So again, why apply the Father's name in the baptismal rite when He didn't die or resurrect?
Second, I did not say that Matthew and Acts present opposing views. My point in mentioning the differences of baptismal descriptions is to show that trinitarians don't have an explanation, in part due to their incorrect trinitarian theology.
Modalists have no difficulties with their explanation. Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead in a single person, and therefore baptizing in the name of Jesus encompasses the three modes of the Godhead, which are the Father (creator), Son (redeemer/reconciler), and the Holy Spirit (regenerator/enabler). Trinitarians have to explain why the other two were left out in the account of Acts precisely because all three persons are co-equal.
There is another point that is equally relevant to the one above. In 1 Corinthians 10, where Paul says that the Israelites were baptized into Moses when they transversed the Red Sea, it was because they identified with their divinely anointed savior. Like Jesus, Moses was appointed by God to lead the people of Israel out of bondage. And analogous to our faith, when the Israelites crossed that sea, it took a lot of trust and an act of obedience to be baptized into Moses. Paul could have said that the Israelites were baptized into God the Father because without God, the Exodus would be impossible, but he didn't. God had anointed Moses as the prefigurement of Christ to save his people from bondage. Once again, modalism is in perfect alignment with Pauline theology here. We use Jesus' name in baptism because we identify with God's anointed one in his death, burial, and resurrection. Trinitarians make a mess of Pauline theology with their man-made doctrines. By baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, it misses the point that we are supposed to identify with God's anointed savor, not with God's spirit. Paul attests to this point.
"
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piglet
Jr. Member
Faith: Christian
Posts: 61
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #53 on:
September 10, 2008, 02:24:40 PM »
Quote
oneness Pentecostals baptize the way it was done in Acts, unlike our trinitarian counterparts.
To the contrary: modalism denying God is absolute and genuinely Father, Son, and Spirit is Not "baptizing the way it was done in Acts." Because everything properly Christian done in Acts was in faith of God who really is Father, Son, and Spirit contemporaneously and actually and interrelatingly as persons. Not in faith that They're not.
Quote
I didn't say that "only" Pentecostals baptize this way. I said that oneness Pentecostals baptize the way it was done in Acts, unlike our trinitarian counterparts.
!
"Unlike our trinitarian counterparts" = "only Oneness Pentecostals" baptize this way !
"Only Oneness Pentecostals baptize this way" = "unlike our trinitarian counterparts"
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Acumen
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Posts: 3451
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #54 on:
September 10, 2008, 02:43:52 PM »
Piglet,
You need to school yourself in what denominations actually baptize in Jesus' name. There are Catholics and Trinitarian Pentecostals that baptize the way specified in Acts. So you might want to retract your comments.
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piglet
Jr. Member
Faith: Christian
Posts: 61
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #55 on:
September 10, 2008, 04:03:17 PM »
Quote
You need to school yourself in what denominations actually baptize in Jesus' name.
As mentioned above, you need to be schooled what "in Jesus' name" means. It doesn't mean merely saying the words "in Jesus' name." Especially where deficient (eg modalistic or Jehovah Witness) faith in Jesus is. Nor is "in Jesus' name" absent where one in spirit might say "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (eg Mt 28:19)
Quote
There are Catholics and Trinitarian Pentecostals that baptize the way specified in Acts.
oneness Pentecostals baptize the way it was done in Acts, unlike our trinitarian counterparts.
So you might want to retract your comments.
You might first want to attempt to explain to me how your first two sentences right above don't contradict
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Acumen
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Posts: 3451
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #56 on:
September 10, 2008, 04:48:05 PM »
Quote
Quote
There are Catholics and Trinitarian Pentecostals that baptize the way specified in Acts.
oneness Pentecostals baptize the way it was done in Acts, unlike our trinitarian counterparts.
So you might want to retract your comments.
You might first want to attempt to explain to me how your first two sentences right above don't contradict
There is no "attempt to explain" involved here, it's really quite simple if you were to read with an intent to understand.
Some trinitarians recognize the superiority of baptizing in the name of Jesus, and therefore choose to be baptized this way in their trinitarian church. Some trinitarian churches are willing to accommodate them. And therefore, Oneness Pentecostals aren't the only ones around that baptize in such a way.
However, in general, most trinitarian churches get it wrong by misunderstanding the Matthew application. All oneness Pentecostals, however, baptize the way demonstrated in Acts.
Quote
As mentioned above, you need to be schooled what "in Jesus' name" means. It doesn't mean merely saying the words "in Jesus' name." Especially where deficient (eg modalistic or Jehovah Witness) faith in Jesus is. Nor is "in Jesus' name" absent where one in spirit might say "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (eg Mt 28:19)
First, I have no idea why you keep comparing us with the JWs in terms of baptism; it's particularly specious. By not believing in the deity of Christ, they nullify the atonement doctrine and baptism for that matter. The only thing I can think of us you consider both Oneness Pentecostals and JW's to be heretics, which oddly enough you would be too if you're not a believing Catholic.
Second, when modalists baptize in the name of Jesus, we believe the "name" carries significant weight during the rite. It's not the literalness of a name that's important, but rather the authority it conveys when applied in faith. By recognizing the one who died and resurrected for us, we are properly applying our faith-based baptism to the anointed savior, not to God the Father.
As I said before, Paul could have described the Israelites being baptized into God the Father when they crossed the sea, but he didn't. In Corinthians, Paul intentionally specified that they were baptized into Moses. Moses was the anointed one elected by divine providence to save his people from bondage. When the people followed him, they did so with grave-faith. For this reason, they were baptized into Moses.
Likewise, Jesus was the anointed one elected by divine providence to save us from the bondage of sin. When we follow him into the waters of baptism, we do so with faith in him. We identify with his death, burial, and resurrection. We identify with his morality. God has no mortality. Therefore, we are not baptized into God, but rather into Jesus. Whether we say the formula is of no consequence. Our identification with Jesus' acts of mortality, reconciliation, and mediation in the rite of baptism is the appropriate way it should be performed. By announcing our baptism in the name of the trinity, we misunderstand that baptism is supposed to be an identification with Christ's mortality and miraculous resurrection.
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The end of argument or discussion should be, not victory, but enlightenme
piglet
Jr. Member
Faith: Christian
Posts: 61
Re: Why Jesus name baptism?
«
Reply #57 on:
September 11, 2008, 12:29:41 PM »
Quote
Some trinitarians recognize the superiority of baptizing in the name of Jesus, and therefore choose to be baptized this way in their trinitarian church.
There's no other Christian baptism except into Jesus. Because Jesus is Christian's God.
Into the name of Jesus = into Jesus. Into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit = into Jesus. Into the name of Jesus = into the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Into the Spirit = into the Father and the Son.
Merely speaking and/or mumbling religiously, ritualistically, or deadly correct formulas, may however, especially without faith on the part of the baptized = nothing
Quote
Oneness Pentecostals aren't the only ones around that baptize in such a way.
oneness Pentecostals baptize the way it was done in Acts, unlike our trinitarian counterparts.
i understand. You didn't mean "unlike our trinitarian counterparts."
You meant "generally unlike them."
Thanks for correcting yourself
Quote
the Matthew application.
What's "the Matthew application"?
Quote
I have no idea why you keep comparing us with the JWs in terms of baptism; it's particularly specious.
As i've mentioned repeatedly: both modalism and Jehovah Witnessism deny God's triunity.
As do your other companions in that regard: Islam, Mormonism, and Christ-rejecting Judaism.
It's particularly serious
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By not believing in the deity of Christ, they nullify the atonement doctrine and baptism for that matter.
Deity is 3-1. Triune. Neither modalistic nor separating Son from Father
Quote
heretic...you would be too if you're not a believing Catholic.
To the contrary: the New Testament Greek word "hairesis," the root of "heresy" and "heretic,"
has and had meaning long before Roman Catholicism either existed or began to evolve. Nor do Catholic definitions automatically or necessarily change Biblical uses and meanings of it
Quote
when modalists baptize in the name of Jesus, we believe the "name" carries significant weight during the rite. It's not the literalness of a name that's important, but rather the authority it conveys when applied in faith. By recognizing the one who died and resurrected for us, we are properly applying our faith-based baptism to the anointed savior, not to God the Father.
Unlike in modalism, Father and Son aren't separate in the New Testament.
Jn 10:30, 38; Mt 28:19; Jn 14:10-11; Col 2:9; Jn 1:18; etc.
Nor are Father and Son or Spirit mere modes.
Jn 1:1-2; 3:35; 5:20; 17:1; 10:38; 8:16-18, 28-29; Mt 3:17; etc
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