Fidei,

It's actually quite refreshing to hear a Catholic not refer to infallible tradition as the trump card in discussions.

Thank you Fidei,
Finally I am able to sit down and read your post without distractions.
Thanks for expressing your point so clearly, it's appreciated. 

I will try to be concise and not ramble on the way I have a habit of doing.

There is a Christian leader/organization called Vision Forum.  The President,
Doug Philips teaches the doctrine in his church regarding women not taking
communion, unless her husband or son give it to her.  I believe they are also
the church that has husbands/wives, men/women sit separately.  This
organization appears well established??  Anyway - I'm not in it 

Let's start from the beginning. Gen 1:26-27
26 God said, Let Us [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all of the earth, and over everything that creeps upon the earth. 
27 So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them.


We see even though woman was different, both were created in the "image" and
likeness of God.  Both were given authority over God's creation.  I believe in the fall
women lost her place of equality, and as a curse was to be ruled over by her husband.
Not because of superiorty, but because of her loss through sin.  I believe Christianity
completely restored her to equality.  Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying.

I'm going to try to point out in many ways from the Old and New testaments that
women were given roles in leadership.  It wasn't just a men's club )

OT
Many women rose to leadership,
Miriam, a prophetess, led in song and dance celebrating victory,
Deborah, obviously a strong personality and prophetess became a judge of the
   nation and led armies
Huldah, prophetess, gave counsel to the "high priest and king" 2 Chronicles 34:22
Noadiah, prophetess

There are many references to mothers in authority, I'm thinking of the Proverbs
when refering to "the law of thy mother" not to be forsaken, or the contempt
of a child for his mother would bring a curse on him. 

From what I've read, the Hebrew culture had very high regard for their women,
it was the heathen cultures around them, including Greece, Egypt and Rome
whose conception of women's worth didn't compare.  It was in these cultures
that women became inferior and degraded.  Hebrew women enjoyed the freedoms
similar to those in the Christian era.  Then there's King Lemuel's mother - the
viruous woman, who seemed to exercise great freedom or liberties in running her
household.

Women shared in taking the vow of the Nazarite and offering sacrifices, as
Manoah's wife (Judges 13:13-14).  They were even permitted to "minister"
at the door of the sanctuary (Ex 38:8; 1 Sam 2:22), etc...


NT

The fact that Jesus, the Messiah, was born of a woman speaks volumes.  I
don't need to elaborate to a Catholic )

I see women playing a significant role in Jesus' life.  Everything from His birth,
to ministering to His needs, witnessing His crucifixion, following His body to
the tomb, preparing spiced and ointments for His burial, first at the tomb
after the resurrection AND the first to whom the LORD appeared after His
resurrection.  I know this is just a side note.

Women were noted on the Day of Pentecost

and more women...
Dorcas
Priscilla was equally gifted as her husband and expounded the way of God -
    and "instructor" of Apollos (Acts 18:26).  She was also Paul's "fellow-worker
    in Christ."  Sounds like Paul considered her as necessary to the ministry as
    himself.   
Daughters of Philip were prophetesses
Lydia, the first convert in Europe, very hospitable to Paul and her home was
  a meeting place
The church at Rome seemed to have a number of gifted and consecrated
   women, Paul in closing his epistle sends his greetings to at least 8 prominent
   women:  Phoebe, Prisca, Mary "who bestowed much labor on you" Tryphena
   Tryphosa, Persis, Julia, Nereus (Rom 16:1,3,6,12,15) according to commentaries
    these women were considered prebyters
Lois and Eunice, grandmother and mother of Timothy instructed Timothy in the
    holy Scriptures
Phoebe a deaconess in the church (Rom 16:1) at Cenchreae, who assisted
    Paul himself.  She was called a servant, translated diakonos
    NT:1249 diakonos (dee-ak'-on-os); probably from an obsolete diako (to run on
    errands; compare NT:1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table
    or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically,
    a deacon or deaconess):
   KJV - deacon, minister, servant.
   
"Those women who 'labored with me in the gospel'" (Phil 4:3) undoubtedly participated
   in preaching.
The women of 1 Timothy 3:11 who were to serve "in like manner" just like the deacons
     in verse 10 also had to be qualified in character as the deacons
In both Titus 2:3 and 1 Tim 5:2 the word used for "aged" women is the word
     presbuterai = presbyters


Regarding the body of Christ, I believe God has given many gifts.  You asked,

Everyone agrees that the gifts are given freely to the Body of Christ [male and female] for our edification, but for the ministerial priesthood also?  Are you influenced by the present day socio-cultural climate?

My answer.  I don't think I'm being influenced by the socio-cultural climate of the
present day, when I say -- 

If you believe gifts are given freely to the Body of Christ [male and female] why
would you think any differently of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastors, teachers? 
Doesn't the Scripture clearly call these "gifts" that GOD gives to HIS body?  An
organized religion doesn't give God permission to give HIS gifts to whom HE's sees
fit.  Not only is He the Giver, but He gives gifts indiscriminately. 

1 Cor 12:22-31
22 But instead, there is [absolute] necessity for the parts of the body that are considered the more weak.
23 And those [parts] of the body which we consider rather ignoble are [the very parts] which we invest with additional honor, and our unseemly parts and those unsuitable for exposure are treated with seemliness (modesty and decorum),
24 Which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so adjusted (mingled, harmonized, and subtly proportioned the parts of) the whole body, giving the greater honor and richer endowment to the inferior parts which lack [apparent importance],
25 So that there should be no division or discord or lack of adaptation [of the parts of the body to each other], but the members all alike should have a mutual interest in and care for one another.
26 And if one member suffers, all the parts [share] the suffering; if one member is honored, all the members [share in] the enjoyment of it.
27 Now you [collectively] are Christ's body and [individually] you are members of it, each part severally and distinct [each with his own place and function].
28 So God has appointed some in the church [for His own use]: first apostles (special messengers); second prophets (inspired preachers and expounders); third teachers; then wonder-workers; then those with ability to heal the sick; helpers; administrators; [speakers in] different (unknown) tongues.
29 Are all apostles (special messengers)? Are all prophets (inspired interpreters of the will and purposes of God)? Are all teachers? Do all have the power of performing miracles?
30 Do all possess extraordinary powers of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
31 But earnestly desire and zealously cultivate the greatest and best gifts and graces (the higher gifts and the choicest graces). And yet I will show you a still more excellent way [one that is better by far and the highest of them all — love].

Eph 4:7-12
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

You made mention of leaving our calling to those entrusted with our faith.  I don't
believe in entrusting my faith to another fallible human being.  Sure we exercise our
gifts in the body, we need each other, but even Paul said God gave him his calling. 
He didn't need the approval of men.  It's honestly difficult for me to see all the
control that religion has placed on the body of Christ.  I struggle with overly
controlled organizations that hinder the work of God, instead of advancing it.

I'm tired, I hope this made sense, and I hope it didn't take a sarcastic tone. 
Thanks for reading.



In JESUS,
Grace by Faith

El,

Acumen:  Are you assuming that before the fall there could be no suffering?

El:  My point wasn't necessarily directed towards "physical suffering"  I said, "why do we suffer in the same ways.  In other words and for example.... I have to continue to suffer your lack of attention to detail....

You keep saying that, and yet you show it more precisely in your posts.  For example, I never stated that "suffering" was the physical sort.  Either you made the assumption so you could conveniently correct me, or because you were inattentive -- take your pick. 

Absolutely! Women should be pastors. However, I would caution women pastors who are married.

Look at Paula White for example.

I know of a couple personally that used to pastor the church I used to attend and they both had a minister's license through the Church of God (which is not easy to obtain because of the system of examinations, observations, etc). Long story short they ruined the church because they both wanted things "their way" and they ended up divorced. (the church was just icing on the cake)

Conversely, I know 2 lady pastors who have pastored for most of their lives who are not married and their churches are doing well. I really think that there is something to a lady minister not being married that helps here to maintain authority and control.  Of course, this is my personal experience.

Blessings,

Derrick the defender

Fidei,

So, my questions are as follows; if your denomination allows women now and didn’t at some time in the past [this would go for all denomination that now allow women], why did they not allow them in the past? 

Good question.

If they didn’t allow women ministers in the past and do now, does that not follow the pattern and loosely line up with the date of women’s emancipation and suffrage, found in the secular culture?  If it does, and I think it does, how can you be sure you are not being influenced by a socio-cultural bias or at least believing that you are understanding Sacred Scripture more clearly now?

Personally, I think that the cultural and civil emancipation of women is a logical corollary of enlightenment and step in the right direction for human rights.  If it takes such enlightenment to return our focus on the role of women in the church, then we ought to see it as an opportunity to right a wrong, rather than viewing it as a natural bias of socio-cultural change.  Just my opinion.

-Acumen

Acumem

You stated, “If it takes such enlightenment to return our focus on the role of women in the church, then we ought to see it as an opportunity to right a wrong, rather than viewing it as a natural bias of socio-cultural change.”

Implicit in that statement is that 1) women in the early Church had an ordained ministerial role and also 2) that culture ordains doctrines.  Is this true or were you truly being facetious?  Because that will present a whole week’s worth of discussion!!  Thanks!

Fidei in nuce

Thanks Acumen,
I can't seem to get on here as often as I'd like.  My husband is up
working on business mail, and I decided to join him in the office and
read some posts at 2 am.

Fidei,
I still don't have much of an answer for you regarding the pentecostal
movement.  I'll check with my pastor when I see him on Wednesday on
where to find this particular info - thanks for your patience.  AND thank
you for your tone in this discussion.  It's been very respectful and
appreciated, I hope I can do the same.

I would still like to understand what the differences are for you between
the ordained ministers (deacon, deaconess, prophets, evangelists,
teachers, etc...) "according to Scripture."  Obviously, I'm not Catholic,
their traditions (small or big 't') doesn't matter much to non-Catholics.
Those ministries or gifts I've listed above were shared by men and women
in the Scriptures.  My original question was, "Should women be pastors?" 
I guess it's slowly evolving to "Why shouldn't women be pastors?" 

Acumen has made some good points, I think.  I've been told the Catholic
doctrines have evolved when it comes to some issues through out the years,
why is that a negative?  Why can't we learn from our mistakes, I think that
would be more admirable that being stuck in our "traditions" just for the sake
of digging our heals in (pride).  Organizations that grow and change areas
of weakness with good reason, in my opinion, are more respectable than
those who choose not to.  We all are to continue to grow in the grace and
knowledge that God gives, and sometimes He can use our culture to point
out some weaknesses.  If He can use a donkey, why not people.  That's
in regard to change.

When you speak of making a case for the differences, are you going to be
referring to Catholic traditions or the Word?

Thanks again, it's been a delight, and I'm learning - with is always fun!


Grace

Fidei,
I'm guessing this will be "distilled down" to Catholic tradition.  This
is sounding familiar.  Some of the other debates I'm witnessing have
done the same. 

I wouldn't say Jesus' calling out 12 disciples is instruction on who can
be in ministry.  Especially in light of all the women in ministry found
in both Old and New Testaments.

I've given quite a few examples in the Scriptures of women in roles
apparently not acceptable to you because the Catholic church says
so.  Again, I don't "really" care to argue with tradition, because it is
what it is.  I thought we were looking at Scriptures for support, not
this idea that if certain Catholics have voted on it, then it's law.   

Not being rude, but there is a reason why I'm not Catholic, and this is
it.  Their traditions are given as much authority as the Scriptures.  It
certainly seems they have taken away from the Authority of God's
inspired Word, and have chosen to interpret it by and through their
sacred traditions.  Definitely sounds like they're taking God's place as
infallible, and is not something I would choose to follow. 


Thanks for your time

El,

They were more noble than the Thessalonicans...why?  Because they eagerly welcomed the message AND they search the scriptures to confirm the things that they were being told.  So was it their "fair-mindedness" or their scripture "searching" that made them "noble?"

Based upon the context of the passage, I would say both.

It certainly wasn't because of the obviousness in scripture, otherwise the scribes would have seen it themselves clearly, it was because of the willingness to open the hearts to the grace of God through the authority of His Apostles.

Authority?  There you go again with your fixation on authority.  If it was a matter of authority for the Bereans, there would be no need to examine the scriptures to verify Paul's teachings.  Instead, they would have just accepted Paul's authority.

-Acumen

So let me get this straight....They would have figured out about Christ without anyone ever showing them the Gospel in the scriptures?

I never said that.

I suppose even if you still say yes the point remains... that they were told and showed by the Apostles.

Yes.