Al Sadr's Stonghold of Basra Stripped From Him

[WorldWarrior]

"killing ratio"


Do you even realize you are talking about the lives of individual HUMAN BEINGS?

[Acumen]

"killing ratio"


Do you even realize you are talking about the lives of individual HUMAN BEINGS?

I realize we're talking about war, which is largely assessed in terms of death.  People don't realize how difficult it can be to engage an enemy in ground combat and have a 72:0 ratio.

This news is absolutely astounding, especially given the fact that most of these mortalities come from them ambushing us.  I'm very proud of our troops -- their hard work and training is paying off.

[WorldWarrior]

"Ratios."



Don't say that again to someone who has a loved one deployed in a war zone.

[Acumen]

"Ratios."



Don't say that again to someone who has a loved one deployed in a war zone.

If that is how you genuinely feel, then it's probably advisable to avoid threads that concern Iraq in general, or listen to military analysts in the media networks.  In order to give a more objective assessment of the occupation of Iraq, you should expect to hear language that deals in abstractions like "ratios" "mortalities" "numbers" or "fatalities." 

If you have thin skin, participating on threads like this one is something masochistic.   

[WorldWarrior]

Interesting how you try to shift the blame for YOUR inability to think of the numbers as individual human beings onto other people possibly having "thin skin."

[Acumen]

I was in the Navy for 4 years.  I have some friends and a cousin in Iraq, and I don't have a problem with the term "ratio."  War is war and there is no American draft, so we all go into the military knowing what we are getting ourselves into.

I agree with Acumen, if you can't understand the use of terms like "ratio" then you need to take your one liners to another thread and topic.

What is terribly inconsistent with liberals discussing the war is their hypocrisy in not allowing a fair exchange of ideas.  There is a thread on Bnet, one started by WW, whose sole purpose is to pounce on the total ineptness of the war and occupation of Iraq in terms of military death, rape, suicides, and every other disgusting and unpatriotic thing.  And when someone posts good news there like the overthrow of Basra, or victorious skirmishes with positive ratios that reflect the absence of U.S. mortalities, then it's some sort of tasteless conservative joke.

They use an appeal to emotion to gridlock positive or uplifting conversation.  It's pathetic.

[Thorolf]

Upon reading up on this thread, I find myself wondering...

Warrior, are YOU aware of the history of Charles de Gaulle?

Are you SERIOUSLY trying to liken al Sadr to de Gaulle? Really?

[Thorolf]

"There is no doubt he is a coward, or that his militia isn't as strong as the liberals want us to believe.  For God's sake, he's hiding in Iran.  You know it's pretty bad when a woman goes on camera and calls him a coward, calls his bluff, and he still calls to maintain a cease fire.  This is very telling.  In Arab culture, a women calling an Arab man a coward is a serious offense.  Condie Rice basically said he didn't have the balls to stay and fight for his own cause.  Not once did he respond with any authority.  Why?  Because he can't.  His hand is forced.  Why do you think the Iraqi Government is has been emboldened the past week?  They are making no concessions to Al Sadre.  They smell blood in the water, and they are going after him, and that's a done deal."



You do realize there's not one substantiated fact in the above quotation?

Yes there is.

Rice DID call al Sadr a coward.

Even in your little one-liner games, you still can't seem to get it right. Don't worry, though... we're here to help. 

[Faithfulee]

Progress is being made on may fronts.

I am particularly interested in the Fatwa that Canon Andrew White is negotiating with the Shiia and Sunni Muslims.  While it only condemns Muslims killin Muslims, it is a start.  That is how the radical Islamists demonstrate their power.

You sound like you are cheering on al Sadre and the killing. 

[WorldWarrior]

I can see from the statements above where the "information" on Al Sadr and what is going on in Iraq comes from.

And I will say this as many times as I have to--the idiots on "talk" radio do NOT pay any attention to facts.

They pitch their diatribes to people's emotions.


And if anyone calls in to correct their misinformation the caller gets shouted down or talked over until "time is up."

[WorldWarrior]

Turn to your local "talk" radio station during the day and listen to Bill O'Reilly's "show" or Neil Boortz"s "show."


Those are two who do it all the time.

[Faithfulee]

This Article brings the Sadr City situation up o date.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080520/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

This is predominantly an Iraq Army action.

BAGHDAD - Thousands of Iraqi troops moved unchallenged into Baghdad's Sadr City Tuesday to seize the Shiite militia stronghold, in the largest attempt yet by the government to impose control, an Iraqi military spokesman said.
The large Iraqi force backed by tanks entered the sprawling district before dawn, with troops taking up positions on street corners and deploying on rooftops as Iraqi Humvees patrolled the streets, residents said.
The move is the strongest attempt yet by the government to impose control over the district,


Let us pray for  success and that peace comes to this troubled area.

[WorldWarrior]

FFLee--


Which side of the wall is this being done on?

[metis]

Unfortunately, this all too reminds me of Vietnam.  How many times did we here about "progress here", "victory there", the "enemy's on the run", etc.?  Year after year after year we heard the same mantra by the Johnson and Nixon administrations.  But as Yogi Berra once said, "it ain't over until it's over". 

Obviously each of us want to see success there I would assume.  But it really will be the countries over there that ultimately will decide whether there will be peace or not and under what conditions.  Yes, we need our troops there right now, and we certainly need to support their efforts, but we also have to come to realize that we simply will not dictate the results there in the long run.       

[WorldWarrior]

Metis--yes--from histories I've read about Vietnam and people I've talked to who were there--this is all too familiar--in the most discouraging way.

[Acumen]

Unfortunately, this all too reminds me of Vietnam.  How many times did we here about "progress here", "victory there", the "enemy's on the run", etc.?  Year after year after year we heard the same mantra by the Johnson and Nixon administrations.

There are many significant differences between the Vietnam War and the Iraq War besides the obvious differences in politics and geographical landscape.  Northern Vietnam was funded and militarily supported by the USSR and China, which dragged out the war, cost many Americans their lives, and made it next to impossible for the Southern Vietnam military to be a self-sufficient force.  Al Sadr's Militia is not comparable to the Vietcong -- not even close.  They are politically and militarily isolated, and although they are partly funded and supported by Iran -- Iran is no USSR or China of the 70's.  And unlike the Southern Vietnamese, the ISF is a formidable force that is showing competence and resolve by waging battles on three major fronts with minimal American involvement.     

Obviously each of us want to see success there I would assume.  But it really will be the countries over there that ultimately will decide whether there will be peace or not and under what conditions.

And this appears to be happening.
 

[Faithfulee]

It has happened.  Al Sadr has disbanded his Army and is trying to reforming them into a force for good in Iraq.

I have started two topics on this situation, but no one seems to care, now that  things are going so well in Iraq.

[Acumen]

Yes, I'm a prophet.   

[Faithfulee]

I rejoiced when I heard the news and said "Thank God the Surge worked" 

Then a thought came to me as I sat in Church one day.  Canon Andrew White, a Christian minister has been working In Tunis with Sunnis and Shia leaders and had sent me the Fatwa that he had successfully negotiated with these two Muslim Sects.

I spoke to my pastor and confessed my lack of faith that God was working through good Christians and Muslims for peace in Iraq.  Since that time Andrew is on the prayer list of the church and our own prayer list at home.

This is the Fatwa that Andrew Negotiated and I believe is as important as the Surge for the future of a Democratic Iraq

Beirut Religious Declaration

In the name of Allah the most merciful.

A group of Iraqi Shia and Sunni Islamic scholars have gathered in Beirut from the 22nd to the 24th of August 2008 under the auspices of the FRRME. Through dialogue they have discussed what should be done following the considerable security improvements in Iraq. There is great urgency to meet the needs of the Iraqi people who have suffered from injustice, sectarianism, violence, the destruction of infrastructure and the squandering of the fortune of Iraq. They have reached the following recommendations:

1. The violence is coming from extremism without any religious or moral foundation and this contravenes humanitarian principles and targets innocent people. We strongly condemn and denounce all terrorist activities and suicide bombings. The non violent resistance which is aiming to liberate Iraq is a legitimate right by international standards and the heavenly faith.

2. We encourage the continuity of this dialogue and the serious cooperation between the leaders of Iraq to create solutions to be the foundations for the building of the state where security and justice can prevail between the people.

3. We denounce and condemn all foreign interference in Iraq in every way. This interference is the main cause of the violence and the sectarian divide and is preventing the establishment of the Rule of Law in the state of Iraq.

4. We seek to prevent Iraq from being a theatre for sectarian conflict.

5. We encourage the investment in security improvements and want to see the Iraqi community prevented from becoming militant. We will continue to work very hard to develop democracy and activate the role of NGO's in civil society to enhance the building of the state and its institutions.

6. We see that as a priority we need to enable the return of all displaced and emigrated persons to their homes and encourage qualified Iraqi people to go back to Iraq assuring them of their civilian rights and we desire that they return back their estate and employment.

7. We urgently require investigation of the cases of those in prison in Iraq particularly those in prisons controlled by the Coalition.

Sheikh Ahmed Al Kubasi Senior Sunni leader
Sheikh Abdul Latif Humayem Senior Sunni leader
Ayatollah Abu Rageef Senior Shia leader based in Najaf
Sheik Zuhari Senior Shia leader who is the chief religious advisor to the Prime Minister

Organised by Canon Andrew PB White and the Foundation for Relief and Reconciliation in the Middle East

The Joint Sunni Shia Fatwa against all violence

In the Islamic religion, it is knowledge that our merciful God has deigned Adam's son more than other creations: See the Holy Qur'an God says, 70, Alisraa book.

It is knowledge that everybody in Islam more than the other religions. It is totally prohibited from harming the spirit of all human beings: God says in the Holy Qur'an, 32, the table book.

One of the speeches of the Prophet Mohammed prohibits the spilling of Muslim blood on a Muslim himself, and his family, thus suicide bombings are totally prohibited.

Therefore religious and ethical duty calls us as Shia and Sunni religious leaders to announce that all killing must be stopped now, whatever the reasons and the cause and the motives between Muslims. And we must start the reconciliation and tolerance and make them the only way to solve the conflicts between the brothers in the country, as seen in the Holy Qur'an God says,9,Alhujarat book the ethical and religious duty is to call all Muslims in our country to take Al Sharia as a refuge to solve all the conflicts, and its invitation to all our people at this difficult time and after this hard experience to reject and forsake all violence, killing and provocation. We invite people of violence to come on side to support reconciliation and tolerance: God says from the Holy Quraan,65,the women book.

Achieving peace, living together, under the rule of law is the demand on all the Iraqi people and it is the religious and ethical duty of everybody to abandon all violence.

This is our Fatwa to all the Iraqi people and all Muslims. From our God we are told, and so have delivered this message, may our God be the witness on us.

The Shia and Sunni Religious Leaders

This is essentially the same Fatwa that I have been calling upon all US Muslims to agree to and help the Iraq people implement.