Religious Tolerance: The Other Side

[sobeit9]

As you know, public schools are making it  policy not to express favoritism that could be offensive to a specific group.  We must be careful not to teach anything that could be offensive to minorities.  We all have our own reality so in the cause of peace we don't express anything offensive.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=445979&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow

Schools are dropping the Holocaust from history lessons to avoid offending Muslim pupils, a Governmentbacked study has revealed.

It found some teachers are reluctant to cover the atrocity for fear of upsetting students whose beliefs include Holocaust denial

Genocide denial worked with the Armenian Genocide so why not the Holocaust.  its worth a shot in their eyes.

Of course you will think this is political correctness gone mad.  But think of how traditional Christmas celebrations have been denied in schools because they were now considered offensive.  Does this mean the Holocaust should only be taught now in the home and in the synagogue because these groups deny it and find the suggestion offensive?

Perhaps we should have second thoughts about immediatly putting the offended on a pedestal because it feels good.  We may learn that it may not always feel so good and the necessary values supporting societal good are sacrificed for it.

[sobeit9]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=445979&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow

The link to the news story didn't appear in the first post.  I'm trying this ftp button.  If it doesn't work someone will have to tell me how to post a link

[sobeit9]

That's curious.  If I hit the reply button the topic summary page includes the link even though it doesn't appear on the post itself.  So to be sure, I'll post the link again as it is.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=445979&in_page_id=1770&ito=newsnow

[Acumen]

Instead of using < > brackets, try using [ ] brackets.  Just a thought.

[Some Darn Xian]

What's interesting about this whole issue of being offended to me, is the way that I have been in many situations that would have gone beyond offending a person. But, that's part of my job.

What I see is the modern culture has moved too far from the arguments of the Civil Rights movements. What was an attitude of stand up for your rights, has gone to the extent of don't express your beliefs or rights too strongly.

I'm inclined to believe modern society has become too schizophrenic to adequately know what is legitimately offensive.

Now, for what offends me:

People who deny a legitimate historically verified and factually substantiated truth. Such examples: the Holocaust, the American Holocaust, the Black Holocaust, religious fascism of all stripes from all religions, and the list goes on;

Societal organizations that refuse to actually take a decisive stand on the issue they are to represent. For example, labor unions actually fighting for labor, the US government actually giving tax breaks to the middle class, and removing any tax breaks for the largest price gouging outsourcing companies.

And finally, news organizations that refuse to tell both sides of the story. In Milwaukee, the Journal Sentinel is one newspaper that has, in the last 20 years moved so far into the realm of yellow journalism that is should be torn apart and sold for fertilizer.

As additional rants come to me, I will add them.

[gracebyfaith]

That's funny!  I agree with the comment made regarding the Milw JS.

Some of these teachers have legitimate concerns.  A friend of mine teaches
in the inner city and it's a different world all together.  Personally, I might be
afraid to teach a class full of professing muslims about the Holocaust - not
that I don't believe it's fact or that I'm afraid of contraversial topics - but
these kids are out of control.  She once called for security to come in and
remove a student, there was an uprising and the students in her class threw
the security guard out    If for political correctness I can't agree, but if
for personal safety who can blame them.

Grace

[sobeit9]

That's funny!  I agree with the comment made regarding the Milw JS.

Some of these teachers have legitimate concerns.  A friend of mine teaches
in the inner city and it's a different world all together.  Personally, I might be
afraid to teach a class full of professing muslims about the Holocaust - not
that I don't believe it's fact or that I'm afraid of contraversial topics - but
these kids are out of control.  She once called for security to come in and
remove a student, there was an uprising and the students in her class threw
the security guard out    If for political correctness I can't agree, but if
for personal safety who can blame them.

The teachers do have legit concerns but what does that say about us?  This politically correct need to deny the truth because of concern for being insulting and disruptive to those that deny reality puts teachers at risk not to mention how easily we give the finger to victims of genocide.  Can you imagine some Jewish kid asking a question about the Holocaust which the teacher refuses to consider truthfully.  How would you feel learning that what resulted in the slaughter of your heritage is not to be discussed in your school but at home and in synagogue?

I don't blame the teachers but rather these lunatics that control secular education.

[Some Darn Xian]

The best way to get people out of this sense of hyper correctness is to simply not let them have the floor to claim some special consideration.

The muslims don't like the concept of the holocaust? Too bad.

The Jewish community is up in arms about an Armenian Holocaust? Too bad.

Xristmas, Chanukah, Kwanza, Festivus? Too bad.

The thing people need to realize is that for every positive one group sees, there is a corresponding negative to another group.

This roughly translates to Stay home or get a thicker skin.

I'm offended. Big deal. Instead of firing off at the person that offends you, why doesn't some inward examination ensue? How about seeing the end of the day in the same way as a person in a much different and more difficult situation? The concept of human compassion is not unique to any one group. It is consistent with being human.

Unfortunately, this has become a mantra for those who lack a certain drive or desire to become part of the larger community. The idea that Whatever-American is something that is special needs to be tamped down to the point where it belongs--as a point of pride for heritage, but not the driving aim of the individual for success and identity.

Looking at any successful or happy person who doesn't deal with the nonsense of the hyper sensitive is to see someone who has managed to find away to relate outside of the red herring.

I'm offended is the cry of someone who is trying to get away from an issue that perhaps isn't understood by the claimant. The need for them to get a clue and understand the greater situation of life in the US is what has to be taught. The concept of civics needs to be taught. The responsibility of each citizen isn't clear. The fact that civics class ends somewhere around the 4th grade is frightening. People aren't informed of the civic duty, and because they don't have a clue, they grab onto these red herring offenses. The fact that a group of well-connected individuals are happy with the discord isn't recognized. The fact that the treasury of the US has been raided so that our grandchildren's children will have to pay for it doesn't even begin to resonate.

The No Child Left Behind act would do well to require high school civics classes. But, that would mean the prolitariate would become educated to what is happening, and the fox couldn't get as many chickens from the hen house.

[sobeit9]

Hello SDX

When Simone Weil was dying she wrote the book "The need for Roots" as her contribution to the question of how to rebuild France after Hitler's devestation.

One politically incorrect question she raises concerns the necessary balance between obligations and rights within a healthy free society.  She asserts that without the healthy spiritual influence on the individuals within society, the belief in the value of obligations deteriorates into an exaggerated concern for rights which deteriorates the society. As you say, one groups positive is another's negative.  So people fight over rights and intentionally espress hypersensitivity for the sake of their demands

IMO you are describing well this acquired mbalance of the demand for rights over what our obligations are to sustain a healthy free society.  Even the thought of such a question is now considered insulting to some group.  This is how far we've sunk IMO.

[SquirleyWurley]

I'm in considerable agreement with the gist of people's posts, here.

I'd suggest this, though...

Tolerance really doesn't mean refusing to state your opinion or pretending someone else has truth too when you don't think so.

Tolerance means not harassing someone, it means leaving them alone when they aren't interested in hearing about your view of their religion or lack thereof, it means not using a captive audience of other people's children to indoctrinate them into your religion, it means not letting bullies pick on people, it means trying to stop the teasing of kids who are different, etc.

The sort of craziness you are describing re: the Holocaust revisionism is I hope a very very rare problem.  I think it does highlight the importance of distinguishing actually important tolerance that I describe above, from superfluous nonsense definitions.

[SquirleyWurley]

Which non-Christian values?

I am aware of certain anti-harassment and anti-bullying measures, and certain efforts to maintain peace, which amount to "hey kids, stop that, that's unacceptable" -- you just don't need to taunt others, follow them around telling them about your god when they don't want to hear it, commenting on their gonads or making suggestions about their presumed sexuality, etc., it's disruptive and bullying.  It bothers me that some people's worries about 'non-Christian' values, has lead to corrosion of such positive efforts to reduce conflict and counteract bullying.

My understanding is that prayer in school is entirely acceptable under the Supreme Court interpretation, and as understood by the ADL and ACLU, PROVIDED that it is student-lead and not disruptive of class time.  It bothers me that many people (including school administrators unfortunately) are unaware of this, as confusion on the issue creates false impressions and escalates needless conflict.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

Ugh, more points that show we are taking the wrong approach to life.  We cannot shelter our children from reality.  The answer is not removing things that some might find offensive, but adding more things that people likely will find offensive in an effort to prepare our kids for the nature of reality.  The Armenian genocide happened.  The holocaust happened.  People are Christian and pray.  People are Muslims and pray.  People are polytheistic of many different kinds.  Some people don't believe in anything supernatural at all.  It is the silencing of other viewpoints that is offensive, not the expression of viewpoints.  Exposure is the only real way to promote tolerance.

all

[SquirleyWurley]

Bullying and harassment should be discouraged, it is a part of order in the classroom, and it is a part of morality to prevent bullying and harassment.

I already indicated that STUDENT-LEAD prayer is already acceptable to the ACLU, ADL, and Supreme Court.  I wanted to add that my understanding is that schools are supposed to be consistent regarding t-shirts with messages, i.e., they can't ban one type of message on a t-shirt and allow another, they either let them all be worn or prevent all such t-shirts with messages (on religion, politics, etc.)

As for abortion, birthcontrol, and sexuality...  For educational reasons it is important for adolescents to have an understanding of ACCURATE information about themselves.  For example, if a teen is experimenting about sex they should know the facts about their body, diseases, pregnancy, and contraception.  LACK of such information could put them at risk, and would be NEGLECTFUL.  Similarly, if someone is gay and they are hearing from family or ministers that their sexuality is insane or that it is no different than bestiophilia or pedophilia, it is important for their psychological wellbeing for them to know that in fact homosexuality is not the same as other forms of sexual behavior, that homosexuals aren't the same as bestiophiles or pedophiles or insane for being gay.  Again, to deprive a homosexual student of such information would be neglectful.  Similarly, re: abortion, it is important for teens to have an accurate understanding of the law, since they are held more responsible to it, and will soon be adults if they live to see adulthood.

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

I agree.  Not telling them about abortion, birth control, sexuality, etc, does not make these topics go away, it just leaves them unprepared for when they are faced with them.

all

[SquirleyWurley]

Good to see you back here, allgoodnamesweretaken.

[sobeit9]

I agree.  Not telling them about abortion, birth control, sexuality, etc, does not make these topics go away, it just leaves them unprepared for when they are faced with them.

all

Hi All

Simone Weil introduces an extremely important observation that we often overlook and really IMO the basis of the failure of our educational system

"The most important part of teaching; to teach what it is to know."  Simone Weil

Education wants to teach what to know depending on secular standards. But what does it mean "to know?"  How does a student become ready to experience what it is to know? This is not the same as being conditioned.  Plato suggested the importance of disciplines allowing a student to develop their capacity to know what it is to know.  Secular education ignores this need insisting that their job is just to teach what to know in order to pass tests.

IMO if students were allowed to experience what it means to know, sex education, for example, could be put into a developed perspective that the current conditioning has deprived them of.  It seems though that even teachers don't know what it means to know so could not be capable of helping anyone.  Their education was concerned with what to know so it is understandable.

Perhaps in the future tolerance could be replaced by understanding but from all I've seen, I seriously doubt it.  There is too much against it.

[WorldWarrior]

ChicagoB says--

" It should also be a no tolerance policy for homosexuality."



Public burnings then?

[SquirleyWurley]

Elluminati, I'll try to treat the issues you bring up adequately.  First of all, I do not desire to be hypocritical, I do not desire to use a 'captive audience' situation to take advantage of adolescents.

What I do want is for information to be available as individuals (with their OWN individual rights, they are not slaves of either the state or the parents) may have more of a need for relevant accurate information that they can then consider.

It is not wrong for an adolescent to know what the law says they can or cannot do -- it would be lying to tell them that something was illegal if it were legal, or vice versa.  It is not wrong for someone who may be engaging in various activities (or considering such activities) to have accurate health information and safety information -- it would in fact be neglectful for someone in a position to transmit health information to deny such information, it would be unethical, immoral.

Again, if a teen is depressed over their sexuality, and they are being told that they are an abomination, a monster like a pedophile or bestiophile, a good person ought to tell them that homosexuality is different from pedophilia or bestiophilia and that they aren't a monster.  If kids are having sex/considering sex, they need to understand their bodies and the processes of reproduction, the consequences of action and inaction (including the details about contraceptives, since this has to do with the consequences of action and inaction)

Such accurate health and safety information should be available easily for the asking.  There are serious health and safety issues involved, and kids are doing things that affect their own lives for years to come, they need to have information to evaluate what they are doing.

[SquirleyWurley]

Re: no tolerance.  I'm also curious, just what sort of intolerance is to be encouraged?

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

Good to see you back here, allgoodnamesweretaken.

Good to be back, hey, are you the same Squirley, or a different one?