Gay church leaders

[SUPERMAN]

Should openly gay church members be allowed to occupy leadership positions?

[Scribbles]

I say no because The bible speaks against homosexuality.

[Superdog]

I back that response with a resounding no!   

[gracebyfaith]

According to Scripture, leaders - teachers in the church are
going to be held accountable for not only their behavior but
their influence.  When I take that into consideration, and knowing
the Bible condemns homosexuality -

Why would we allow a homosexual in "leader"ship?  Seems
completely contrary to Scripture.  Not only would it mislead
the people influenced by the homosexual, but it would give the
message that this sin is allowed or acceptable in the church. 

Taking this a step further, if they've been confronted and haven't
repented and choose to continue in this lifestyle, they should be
removed from the assembly.  I know that would be highly contraversial,
but it's just my opinion.

[Acumen]

You wouldn't just settle for a removal from a leadership position?

[Scribbles]

gracebyfaith,

I agree with you. We are responsible for what we know, and what we are given.
The more knowledge you have the more is required from you..

[Some Darn Xian]

Hello, ALL.

Some of you may remember me, and others, well, here I go.

The issue of homosexuality, IMHO, is overblown.  Let's take any of the other sins that seem to plague the world in general, and Xianity in general.

My personal favorite to view, and I say this not as a person who is happy, but as a person who truly finds it beyond rational understanding, is the hypocrisy. When was the last time a person on the liberal or conservative side of a debate honestly and truthfully acknowledged the skeletons that are within the respective sides' closet? They haven't. That's the problem. I will diverge into the political spectrum for a minute here.

Let's look at the republican party and how they have demolished the Xian side of life. When it comes to the display of disregard and abandonment of the rules, the last 7 years have truly been historical. The conservative right has been overrun by the big business and money interests. The idea of having any morally conservative action in the political spectrum has been lost. What did the Demander in Thief do for the issue of say, abortion? NOTHING!. He promised a great deal of change for the Xian right in this matter. But he didn't deliver for them. The only thing that has happened is the weakening of the Civil Liberties that allow us, Xian and non-Xian, to pop up on this forum and to vent. The very fact that there are people in the world that cannot do this should make us all take notice. This leads me to the hypocrisy. The Xian right has every reason to be upset. They have been taken advantage of in a most aggregious manner. The promises that won W the oval office have been forgotten. But, when this issue is raised, what I routinely hear is how I'm a liberal, or some other slam that I have in some way forgotten to be patriotic, or that I am a victim of the "liberal media conspiracy."

Let's be honest here. The hypocrisy isn't being acknowledged.

How about another issue: Greed. Let's face it, we all are bombarded by it every time we step out of bed. TV, radio, newspapers, the internet, billboards, and the various stores we, by necessity, must enter to simply get the basics of survival. We see something that we want, and the chances are the we will see it more than once and in more than one format of media. What we eventually do is find a way to get whatever that item is. We see it, we want it, and we scheme to get it. This is the way a person starts to loose themselves in the world. Where is the challenge to this? This is more pervasive than homosexuality.

Or, how about this: Anytime a cute member of the opposite sex is in view, what do we do? I mean, do we honestly make assumptions based on a Scriptural context, or do we have some other ulterior motive lurking deep underneath? The fact that most people will notice a person that meets the current standard of "hot" or "cute" is clearly documented from serious academic studies to the "man on the street" kinds of reporting that have a supermodel go into public wearing a fat suit.

These are a few of the issues that I feel we also need to address. The issue of gay--come on! There are not that many people who all of a sudden decide to change to be "Gay." 

More on this latter....

[SUPERMAN]

Somedarnxtian,

Welcome to BeliefCorner, hope you have a good time here.

[Some Darn Xian]

I hope to.

Hey, the great thing is I can actually post here. Since the "OTHER" site revamped its appearance, it has had the functionality of a boat anchor on a car. 

[Acumen]

Darn,

Yep, I think more bnet posters will come to see that fact.  I'm amazed how easy this forum is to use.  Heck, you can even tap on a member's profile and it will give you an analysis of their posting times.  What a sweet forum!

[Some Darn Xian]

Hey

I think you had an unfair head start on the posting numbers, bub!

This format reminds of the old UBB that the MKE Journal had online. They trashed it sometime around 99. This is the way posting should be. Easy, fun, and pretty much the way you want it.

Thanks for the effort and the invite!

[BeBee]

No! Those who are openly gay (living the gay lifestyle) should not be in leadership positions. Neither should an [openly] adulterer.  The body of Christ should attempt to please God; [flaunting your sins crucify Christ all over again].

[SUPERMAN]

Bebee,

Welcome to BeliefCorner!  We hope your stay is most pleasant.

[Bro John]

"No! Those who are openly gay (living the gay lifestyle) should not be in leadership positions. Neither should an [openly] adulterer.  The body of Christ should attempt to please God; [flaunting your sins crucify Christ all over again]."

So, let me try and figure this out ... if they are gay, but remain in the closet it's OK?  If they are an adulterer and nobody finds out ... it's OK?

Blessings
Bro. John

[Acumen]

John,

So, let me try and figure this out ... if they are gay, but remain in the closet it's OK?  If they are an adulterer and nobody finds out ... it's OK?

I got the impression that the "flaunting" part means they no longer feel guilty about their sin.  We all sin in different ways, even church leaders.  But when a church leader gets so callous as to have no regard for putting it on display, then they should step down because their flagrant display would serve as a stumbling block to others.

Just my two cents,

-Acumen

[Bro John]

Actually, I'm just trying to get a feel for the general beliefs of members.  I could be wrong here, but I'm getting the feeling I may be in the minority as a Progressive and sometime Heretical Monk. 

Blessings
Bro. John

[Bro John]

I don't mind at all, I've got broad shoulders and can take a hit now and again with the best of them.

There may be alot more poeple coming this way than expected.  The news on BNet this morning is that they have sold out to Fox News Group!  Anyway ... having said that, I think this is a much more user friendly board anyway, and I thank Acumen for the invite.  I'm not even sure if we knew each other or how my name came up ... but here I am!  Any other Canucks here?

Blessings
Bro. John

[Acumen]

I just have good timing.   

[Some Darn Xian]

The issue of openly gay leaders in the church is not an easy one for me.

Personally, this is not something that I have had to wrestle with(coming to terms with being gay, that is).

The argument of nature/nurture or choice is one that is wholly made up by people who really don't seem to get the jist of issue. I say this as one who has a number of openly gay friends. Not one of them woke up one day and decided to be gay for a change of pace. I honestly cannot answer the question as to the origin of the feelings for the same sex. I don't know. And, because I do not feel the need to add any additional pain to a person who is clearly vexed by the societal pontifications and hatred, I simply have admit this is something that I pray for understanding. The concept of God making someone gay and then condemning them for it rubs the wrong way.

So, that being said, let me get to my point.

I look at the human condition from a black and white standpoint:

Humans=sin=everything a person does=damnation.

This includes all carbon based life forms who are bipedal and sentient and capable of using the opposable thumb.

Without the grace of God, there is no salvation. Period.

Now, whether or not a person is actively living a particular way is not the matter that needs to be singled out as a "worse than that" method of comparison.

If we remember that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Romans 5:23, the concept of whether or not someone is sinning is pretty simple.

A person who is living in a committed monogomus relationship, be it straight or gay, is far better in terms of setting an example than a person who is bed hoping every night of the week.

So, that being said, I define a "committed relationship" as one where the two individuals are joined together through a vow. I won't use marriage, as this will seem to indicate a heterosexual couple. If a couple is together and they view it as a life long commitment, I don't see it as a problem.

If a person is roaming around looking for the love of the moment, regardless of orientation, there is a problem.

This moves to the next level, then, about leaders who have their pet sins, sexual or otherwise, that need to be addressed. To simply single out people who are gay as a problem goes to undermine anyone's authority when it comes to morality. It serves to focus on a sin due to a sensational sense of outrage, not a true and moral concern. The Xian right is really quite good at doing this. There whole rise to power has been on the backs of those they see as being inferior. And the only way to call someone inferior is to focus on some sort of a moral issue--real or contrived. Follow that up with a mantra-like repetition, and who have a severely slanted construction of what once had an element of truth.

Let those without sin cast the first stone.........

[Bro John]

Some Darn X

Thank you for your very thoughtful post.

You said; "Personally, this is not something that I have had to wrestle with(coming to terms with being gay, that is)."

This is something I've never had to struggle with either, I just was!

Blessings
Bro. John